A look at life of BTK killer; A look at New Face of al Qaeda Movment
Aired May 4, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: I found myself on an airplane today and I was reading a junk paperback about a serial killer on the loose. It was one of those guys that was smarter than everybody, somebody making the FBI look bad.
And the story we begin with tonight is similar. It has a serial killer, at least an accused one. It has victims who may have been alive but for -- the "but for" is the story. How police, with the help of a flaw in the FBI's fingerprint system, let an accused killer go free again and again to, it is alleged, kill again and again.
We begin tonight with Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was in custody in Georgia for a minor crime, public indecency. He told investigators his name was John Paul Chapman. To make sure he wasn't wanted for anything worse, the sheriff's office ran his fingerprints through the FBI's computer system, and it was then the saga began. The computer missed something very important. This wasn't Chapman, but Jeremy Jones, and he was wanted, in Oklahoma, for sexual assault. It's rare, but the FBI computer sometimes fails to match new fingerprints with those already in the system, and this was one of those times.
STAN COPELAND, DOUGLAS COUNTY CHIEF SHERIFF'S DEPUTY: I know for a fact that this system works, much, much more than it fails. So, you know, when you have humans, humans design these computers, you know, things are going to happen.
ARENA: A new computer file was created and, from then on, Jeremy Jones was officially John Paul Chapman, fingerprints and all. Georgia officials released him, but he didn't avoid run-ins with the law and was arrested twice after that, once for criminal trespassing, and again for drug possession, his fake alias and computer file allowing him to bail out and get released each time.
COPELAND: Nothing seemed amiss. He gave the information that we needed -- Social Security number, date of birth, things like that. He was fingerprinted promptly. Those were submitted. They came back clear. So there was no reason -- we book, in and out, approximately 12,000 people a year, so he was just one of the many that came through here for charges similar to that.
ARENA: The FBI and local officials say it was a technical, not human, error, but prosecutors say the glitch allowed Jones to go on a murder spree. Less than a month after he was released for the second time, police in New Orleans discovered the body of Katherine Collins (ph). She had been raped and brutally beaten. A month later, 16- year-old Amanda Greenwell (ph) disappeared, only to turn up dead in the woods not far from his home. Jones has been charged with both murders, and he told investigators that he killed a third person, Patrice Endres (ph). Her body is still missing. Her husband says he doesn't buy the FBI's explanation.
ROB ENDRES, VICTIM'S HUSBAND: I don't believe it is technological. It is human as well or protocol or SOP's, however they want to term them, they didn't do their job appropriately. To me, it's as simple as that.
ARENA: In a statement, the FBI says it regrets the "incident" and is conducting "regular audits to avoid a repeat." Officials realize nothing they say can change what happen, but want the public to know that it's computer successfully I.D.s thousands of fugitives each month. Endres says it would have been nice if he'd heard that in person.
ENDRES: Once they realized that they have this problem in the system that ultimately caused the death of four women, why wouldn't they have contacted the husbands and the parents and the daughters of the people involved?
ARENA: Jones' true identity was not discovered until September of 2004 after being taken into custody in Alabama in connection to the rape and murder of Lisa Nichols.
(on camera)
: After his arrest, Alabama authorities issued a national bulletin asking for more information about John Paul Chapman -- Jones was still using the alias at the time -- and found out that the real Chapman was sitting in a Missouri jail cell, an apparent victim of identity theft. As for Jeremy Jones, police say their investigation continues, and that he could be charged in even more killings. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Seem to have a lot of crime stories tonight. Most criminals, when they're caught, say they didn't do it. We offer that as a caveat to our next story, a story full of drama, stemming from an alleged crime and its possible punishment, which is severe -- life in prison. At the center of the drama, a young Australian woman and her family. On the periphery, a Hollywood star. Here's CNN's Atika Shubert.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Schapelle Corby wanted a holiday, so the 27-year-old Australian beauty school student packed a surf bag and, with her brother and two friends, headed to the island of Bali in Indonesia. Her mother snapped this happy photo just before she boarded the flight. Corby got as far as Bali's airport. That's where her nightmare began. Police arrested her after finding roughly nine pounds of marijuana in her surf bag. Indonesia has stiff penalties for drug smuggling, death penalty or life imprisonment.
SCHAPELLE CORBY, DEFENDANT: I swear, by God as my witness, I did not know the marijuana was in my bag.
SHUBERT: Corby says she experimented with drugs as a kid, but does not now use drugs. She insists the drugs were planted in Australia without her knowledge. Corby says, by a smuggling net network. Proving it is another matter.
Under Bali law, the drugs are considered hers unless Corby proves somebody else put them there. Corby's lawyers say it is an open secret that Australian drug rings hide contraband in the unlocked bags of travelers.
The defense's star witness is an Australian facing sexual assault charges at home. He testified to overhearing whispered conversations about a smuggling plot while in an Australian prison. Indonesia has no jury system and the final decision rests with these three judges. They seemed less-than-impressed with the defense witness, nor are they happy with her repeated fainting spells in court. An Indonesian doctor said she was under extreme stress, but the judges warned Corby not to fake illness, provoking an angry response from family members.
The trial has become a media circus, cameras and microphones posted around the court. Indonesian anti-drug campaigners loudly demand her execution one day, while Australian supporters staunchly insist upon her innocence the next.
Corby's case struck a sympathetic chord in Australia. Websites have sprung up in her defense, selling "Free Schapelle" t-shirts. Even actor Russell Crowe called into a local radio show demanding government intervention.
RUSSELL CROWE, ACTOR: When there is such doubt, how we can as a country, stand by and let a young lady, as an Australian, rot away in a foreign prison? That is ridiculous.
SHUBERT: But Corby must prove her innocence to Indonesia's courts, a burden that has taken its toll.
CORBY: I believe seven months which I've already been imprisoned, is severe enough punishment for not putting locks on my bag. And my heart and my family has been painfully burdened by all these accusations and rumors about me. I don't know how long I can survive in here.
SHUBERT: Prosecutors asked for life imprisonment, sparing Corby the death penalty. Her family says a life in a Bali prison is no life at all, something she may contemplate awaiting a verdict. Atika Shubert, CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: In a moment, you'll hear a California highway patrolman say, this happens all the time. He's not talking about speeding. People have been getting shot on the freeways of southern California and people have been dying -- at least four since March. Whether that's normal in a place where millions of drivers and millions of handguns share the same territory, or whether it's something else, we don't yet know. We can tell you that police are taking it seriously, and people are seriously scared. Reporting from Los Angeles tonight, CNN's Kareen Wynter.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is just after 5:00 a.m. and this mother of two is already behind schedule. A quick goodbye for her six-month-old daughter, then into the next room and a kiss for her 2-year-old son. Then she's off. Until recently, the most grueling part of her day was dodging traffic on the 40-mile drive to work along southern California's famously congested freeways. Now Nichelle Riggs has a new concern, dodging bullets.
NICHELLE RIGGS, COMMUTER: I don't feel safe knowing that there's someone out there that could just pull up on the side of me at any given moment and change my life.
WYNTER: Since March 12th, when a man was shot and killed driving in Orange County, a rash of unsolved shootings has rattled much of southern California. That, even though police insist the number of freeway shootings isn't on the rise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've had some tragedies, but compared to last year we're actually on pace to have fewer incidents this year.
WYNTER: But public fears have forced the creation of a special task force to stop the shootings. We were allowed to ride along on one of the first undercover patrols.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we just had shots fired.
WYNTER: The undercover investigator begins chasing a report of what sounds like another freeway shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim is actually at the New Law (ph) office. They advise that they were shot at -- at the exact same, or near the same 10-20 as the shooting from yesterday. WYNTER: We were asked not to reveal the identity of the officer, but this call and the next one he recieves...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Party that said that their windshield was shot...
WYNTER: ...turn out to be false alarms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a good day, because there was no shootings, and maybe a bad day for leads, but tomorrow's another day. We'll get 'em.
WYNTER: But, who are they going to get?(on camera): There are no leads so far in these cases. You have you no suspect's description. So what are you looking for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm looking for cars or drivers that are exceptionally aggressive. Highway violence incidents. Things that usually an officer in a black and white wouldn't usually see.
WYNTER (voice-over): The problem is, victims and witnesses haven't provided any solid leads. Even sophisticated network of video cameras on every freeway fail to offer police a clue. Law enforcement suggests shootings could be anything from gang activity to road rage. They have no idea if it's a single shooter or isolated incidents. With so many law enforcement agencies involved, no one has kept a precise count on how many shootings have occurred. Police do agree that since March there have been at least eight freeway shootings. Four of them fatal. LAPD Chief William Bratton called in to a radio talk show to calm nerves.
CHIEF WILLIAM BRATTON, LAPD: The chances, statistically, of being a victim of one of these shootings, you're much more likely to be injured or killed by a drunk driver or debris flying into your car. That's the reality.
WYNTER: Perhaps only in Los Angeles could that be seen as a reassuring statement. But even here, the perception is that the freeways have become more dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another freeway shooting is creating fear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A driver escaped unhurt this time when he came under fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fear on the freeways tonight after yet another shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a wave of shootings...
WYNTER: KTLA's Desiree Horton has spent 15 years flying over the streets of Los Angeles. She says the only thing that's gotten worse is the traffic.
DESIREE HORTON, KTLA TRAFFIC REPORTER: Some people say that a lot of people are scared, maybe they won't be taking the freeways as much. But I haven't noticed less volume.
WYNTER: Most people like Michelle Riggs don't have any choice. At the end of the day, she still has an hour long drive back home.
MICHELLE RIGGS, COMMUTER: Each time I get in the car, I have to pray that I'll make it to my destination and make it back home safely to my family.
WYNTER: A long hour to worry. Kareen Wynter, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Still ahead tonight, we'll hear from a woman who says her boss was the worse kind of boss. That was years before he was charged with the BTK killings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He would say mean, hateful things to people. He would send them to me. And sometimes I think he thought he was God.
BROWN (voice-over): She didn't know then that Dennis Rader may have been the BTK Killer. Looking back, were there clues at the office? Nearly a decade after a fire left him brain damaged and mute, a firefighter speaks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As you can imagine for us, to speak to and to be recognized by my husband, their father, after 9 1/2 years, was completely overwhelming.
BROWN: Adding estrogen to a high testosterone sport.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the difference between my team and a male team is we reek sex appeal and men just reek. BROWN: These women have the scars and the sponsors to prove they're in the fight. Safe on the sidelines and from New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In just a moment a woman who worked for the man now accused of being the BTK Killer tells what he was like as a boss, not exactly a flattering portrayal. A little past a quarter after the hour, Erica Hill joins us with what has been a busy day in the world. Erica, good evening.
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS: Busy indeed, Aaron.
We start off with word from the Pentagon, a conclusion here that a U.S. marine who shot an unarmed Iraqi inside a Fallujah mosque last fall acted in self-defense. And we are told will not be charged.
Meantime, yet another deadly attack in Iraq. At least 60 people killed when a bomber blew himself up at a police recruitment center in the city of Erbil (ph). A
military judge, meantime, at Ft. Hood in Texas, today, threw out Lynndie England's plea that she's guilty of abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib and declared a mistrial. Now all this happened after new testimony revealed England may have not realized that what she was doing was illegal. Military prosecutors must now decide whether to refile the charges against her.
A Pentagon analyst accused of being a spy. Larry Franklin is charged with providing classified information about possible attacks against U.S. troops in Iraq. The Justice Department says he gave the information to members of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee.
And Michael Jackson's defense team is expected to begin calling witnesses tomorrow. The prosecution rested its case today, wrapping up two months of testimony with a witness who told jurors that Jackson's associates made up stories to convince the family of his accuser that they were in danger. That supports earlier testimony by the boy's mother. And that is a look at the headlines at this hour.
Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Erica, thank you. We'll see you in a half our or so. Thank you.
Prosecutors in Wichita, Kansas, say there will be no deal, no plea bargain the case against Dennis Rader, the man accused of being the serial killer known as BTK. He's charged with ten counts of murder that date back to the '70s. What makes this case so extraordinary and different for from most serial killer cases is that Mr. Rader, if he is in fact guilty, was such a part of the community he terrorized. He worked for the city. He organized the scouts. Led the church. Was a friend and neighbor. And for our purposes tonight, a boss.
From Wichita, here's CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Wichita residents hear the accusations against Dennis Rader and shudder to think that the serial killer BTK may have lived among them, few are as personally involved in following the case as Mary Capps who for six years had Dennis Rader as her boss.
MARY CAPPS, CO-WORKER OF DENNIS RADER: I sensed and had seen a very evil side to Dennis. And he was a very hateful person. He would say mean, hateful things to people. He would send them -- he has said them to me. And sometimes I think he thought he was God.
MATTINGLY: A Park City, Kansas compliance officer, Capps can be seen in this video with her supervisor Rader. She says they clashed frequently on the job. And describes him as moody, often angry and volatile. (on camera): Were you worried the he might get physically violent in the work place?
CAPPS: I cannot answer that at this time.
MATTINGLY: But you were afraid of him?
CAPPS: Yes, I was. It was at a point where I would come into the office, say good morning to him, if he didn't answer, I hurried up, got my ride log together, I got my check-on list together. And would pick up my coat. And it's like a nylon coat. Pick it out and carry it out in front of me so as to not make any noise, so he couldn't hear me getting out of the office.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Capps confirms previously reported descriptions of Rader as a stickler for detail. But she goes further to say he enjoyed the power he had as a compliance officer, enforcing local property regulations and controlling stray animals.
CAPPS: Oh, absolutely huge ego. Sometimes, I wonder how he got it through the door. So...
MATTINGLY (on camera): Give me an example.
CAPPS: He never makes mistakes. I got that told to me on a regular basis. And if I did find one...
MATTINGLY: He told you this.
CAPPS: Yes, that he never makes mistakes. And if I found a mistake and pointed it out to him, maybe it was something he was jumping me about, and I pointed out that he made the same mistake, I better be heading for the door, because the rest of the day is going to be miserable.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Capps says she filed two grievances with Park City about Rader's behavior. City officials confirm Capps was a compliance officer and Rader was her supervisor. They declined to comment further and will not confirm Capps' allegations.She says she recalls vividly the day of Rader's arrest and, in spite of her problems with him, the initial surprise of his alleged connection to BTK murders.
CAPPS: First, I thought maybe something happened to Dennis. Maybe a citizen had done something to him. And then...
MATTINGLY (on camera): Why would you think that?
CAPPS: Why would I think that? Because of his attitude towards them as well. I figured, one of these days, one of them is just going to haul off and just lay him out.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): But the arrest was due to something far more serious. And as investigators collected evidence at Rader's Park City home, Capps began to reexamine Rader's recent behavior.
CAPPS: He changed a lot. The only word I could put in it is, he became very dark and kind of evil. And he was just a whole lot different.
MATTINGLY (on camera): Capps describes a personality completely different from the loving and doting husband and the devout church leader that so many in Wichita claimed to know. In 2004, after BTK reemerged, she also says that Rader became enthralled with news coverage of the case.
CAPPS: I remember one time when I was looking at the Internet and I seen where Larry King was going to talk about BTK.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, after 25 years of silence, a notorious serial killer resurfaces.
CAPPS: And I kind of mentioned it in passing to him. This was just a couple weeks before his arrest. And Dennis ran from his office to my desk, and he goes, you got to be kidding. It was on a Friday. And he goes, well, I'm going to have to watch that tonight. I'm thinking, dang, if anything can make that guy happy, he must be really into this BTK story stuff.
WILLIAMS: BTK is arrested.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): It wasn't until after the extraordinary announcement by police that Capps says the realization hit home that she had been working for and frequently arguing with the man accused of murdering 10 people.
CAPPS: I believe I really am very lucky.
MATTINGLY: So, as Rader's arraignment began, Capps watched closely, hoping to hear the word guilty and was almost immediately disappointed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The court will enter a plea of not guilty. I will set this matter for a jury trial on June.
CAPPS: I can't believe it. His ego really is that big.
MATTINGLY: It was a moment leaving her more anxious than ever to see this case ended.
CAPPS: I definitely need to move on. And I need a lot of questions answered for me, too.
MATTINGLY: Answers, that may now have to wait for a court date in June.David Mattingly, CNN, Wichita, Kansas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tonight, a big catch in the war on terror. But does jailing one of top men in al Qaeda mean that much anymore or has the threat evolved into something a lot tougher to stop? And later healthy aggression -- paintball for women on the rise. Take a break first, this is "NEWSNIGHT."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: With all the talk of a culture of life, in a large part of the world there is instead a culture of death.
Tonight one of the leaders in that cause, a third ranking member of al Qaeda is in custody arrested in that nearly lawless land at the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. Abu Faraj al-Libbi was picked up some days ago.
It appears on Monday, though Pakistanis aren't saying. He's believed to have been in charge of operations for al Qaeda. But does a culture of death once it gets going really need to have someone in charge? Have we entered an entirely new chapter in the war on terrorism? It's one of the things we talked about earlier today with Terry McDermott, terrific reporter for "The Los Angeles Times" and now author of a book "Perfect Soldiers," a detailed look inside the attacks of 9/11. Not so much what happened, but how it happened and who made it happen. But we begin our conversation with the news of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We should probably start by talking about the news of the day and the relevance or importance of the news of the day. The government announces they have captured the number three al Qaeda guy. Big deal, certainly not a bad deal. But is it a big deal?
TERRY MCDERMOTT, AUTHOR, "PERFECT SOLDIER": Yes, certainly not a bad deal. But I don't think there are any big deals left in terms of capturing people. I mean, I don't even think if you capture bin Laden at this point it's a huge deal. I think the sad part of it is that al Qaeda has metastasized. It is this big ugly thing that's everywhere now in a way that it never was. It's still very diffuse network of network kind of thing. But cutting off one portion of it doesn't seem to matter.
BROWN: Is it -- I want to talk about the characters that created 9/11. But is al Qaeda capable today in your view -- you spent three and half years reporting on all this -- of pulling off the big attack, a big moment or can they only do small moments?
MCDERMOTT: I think they can still do big things. I think it would be -- they weren't ever able to do really big ones until 9/11. I mean, they did a few -- but the other ones were truck bombs, which have big effects, but it's basically a guy in a pickup truck or a step van. That could happen tonight. And it wouldn't necessarily have to be al Qaeda. I mean, Madrid wasn't al Qaeda.
BROWN: All right.
MCDERMOTT: Casablanca wasn't al Qaeda. This thing is broadened its reach. And the breath of it is what I find most frightening. BROWN: Let me ask you a couple other things. There's a couple piece of video that you have that was -- we talked about. The Ayman.
MCDERMOTT: Ayman al Zawahiri is the mans name and he was a Moroccan from Tangiers (ph), who was an established preacher there. Who visited -- there was a regular circuit of these preachers throughout Europe in the '90s. And the -- one of the striking aspects of Islam the degree to which each preacher does whatever he wants, there's no hierarchy. When you start a church, you do what you want. You start a mosque, and the more fierce you are, the more apt you are to be successful in some -- among some groups.
And these really radical preachers compete with one another for congregants. And they're like circuit riders in Europe, they went around. And Pizzazi (ph) preached often in Hamburg, and preached often and preached especially harshly. I mean, the video, in it, it's actually taken (INAUDIBLE). It's one of his sermons, and some of it is from after the sermon when he would gather the other, the younger men, who were most interested, around and answer their questions. And in it, he's saying things like, you know, it is our duty to kill all the infidels, anyone who is doing anything we don't agree with, man, woman or child.
BROWN: Didn't matter.
MCDERMOTT: Didn't matter. They are all soldiers. It was being willing to get rid of those ideas and seeing that this thing succeeded largely through our haplessness, not through their brilliance. I mean, we did almost nothing to stop them. There were times it seemed like they were willing to deliver themselves to capture. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was indicted in the United States in 1998 for attempting to blow up a dozen 747s over the Pacific Ocean full of Americans. He's under indictment. Up until the summer of 2001, he was not on the FAA's no-fly list. Who was? I mean, why have one if this guy -- he's under indictment! Could there be a bigger threat to American aviation?
BROWN: There is, I think, in some of us, an almost insatiable desire to understand every detail about what happened that day, what led up to the day and the book -- and congratulations for it...
MCDERMOTT: Yes.
BROWN: ...is a nice chunk of detail in that regard. It is good to see you. We've known each other a long time.
Nice to see you.
Congratulations.
MCDERMOTT: Thanks a lot.
BROWN: Thank you.
MCDERMOTT: Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Terry McDermott. Now, Donald Herbert, the injured fireman who hadn't spoken for nearly a decade, and his gift, if only a temporary one, of speech. And a little bit later, we're joined by Montel Williams and his crusade to get medicine he and many others feel they need. The medicine is pot. And this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Imagine waking up from what was essentially a coma that lasted nearly a decade to find that your toddler is now a teenager. This is pretty much what happened to Don Herbert, a father of four. Nine-and-a-half years ago, a burning roof fell on Mr. Herbert, then a firefighter up in Buffalo, New York. The accident damaged his brain, left him mute, until four days ago when he astounded the staff at his nursing home by asking for his wife, and for the next 14 hours or so, he didn't stop talking, talking to his wife, his kids, other family members and friends.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA HERBERT, WIFE: Don has made advances but there is still a long way to go. As you can imagine, for us, to speak to and to be recognized by my husband, their father, after nine-and-a-half years, was completely overwhelming. We are still trying to cope with this incredible experience. When Don spoke, he was under the impression he was only away for three months. He was very surprised to find out it was nine-and-a- half years.
My son Nicholas, who had just turned four at the time of the accident, is just thrilled to have his father call him by name, hug him, and speak with him. As you were told previously, my husband did not believe that it was Nicholas at first, because he thought nick was still three years old. Since Saturday, when Don stopped speaking, he has had several infrequent moments of lucidity, which has given us much hope for further recovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: It's an incredible story. If you think about it, it has all sorts of implications. One of Mr. Herbert's doctors said today that he was put on a new medication three months ago, a combination of medicines used to treat Parkinson's, attention deficit disorder and depression. That said, doctors can't explain what exactly caused Mr. Herbert to finally speak again, and it's not clear how much progress he'll make, but he has made this much. And it's something.
Congress is once again taking up the issue of medical marijuana, whether it is a drug that should be available to patients whose doctors say they could be helped by it. Today Massachusetts Representative Barney Frank re-introduced a bill that has some bipartisan support that would prevent federal prosecution of people using pot with the approval of state authorities. The administration, as we've reported, has gone to the U.S. Supreme Court to try and overrule those state laws. Among those speaking on the issue outside of the Congress today, television personality Montel Williams, who has multiple sclerosis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONTEL WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST: There's over 195 different pain medications out there. Why? Because doctors understand that they don't all work for everyone. Some of us have receptors that are more capable of picking up barbiturates, amphetamines -- some of us don't. And in some cases -- I'll tell you something -- we might pick 1,000 people and probably only 250 of them will get any benefit from medicinal marijuana. But why doesn't that -- why's that not put in the arsenal -- the doctor, to make the choice? If I have a doctor that's smart enough to put me on morphine and that same doctor says, Montell, I'm telling you, you need to you smoke this instead, why can't we believe that that man is capable of making that decision?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Mr. Williams was diagnosed, as many of you know, with M.S. back in 1989, and he joins us from Washington tonight. It's nice to see you. What is -- you know, you get a lot of this -- some conflict here about what the science says on this. To your knowledge, what is the science on medical marijuana, whether it actually works or whether it is a placebo effect?
WILLIAMS: Aaron, that's really the core of the issue right here, and why it's so egregiously wrong and so ignorant that we're having this conversation.
Let me explain something to you.
I stood on the steps today of Congress and told them the fact that I bet a lot of your viewers don't know. For the last 25 years in this country, the United States government has been dispensing marijuana to -- it started off as 13 patients, it's now down to seven patients. Those seven patients receive a canister of marijuana from the United States government every single month.
The last was sent out on April 17th.
One of those patients was on the Capitol steps today with me. The United States government has already determined that marijuana works because, for 25 years, through a program at the University of Mississippi, they've been dispensing it. So, what's so ridiculous is that they'll turn around and say that it doesn't work or there's a question -- they've been providing it under USDA stamp of approval for the last 25 years and studying it.
So, obviously our government believes it works or it would not be putting it in patients and American citizens. And all I'm asking for is that same government that says that one patient is ill enough to be able to use this, why can't I?
BROWN: Let's try a couple things that they also say. One of the things they say is that the smoking of marijuana itself is, is dangerous. I mean, I don't -- I'm not talking about -- I think you know exactly what I'm talking about. They're talking about all the junk that you get in your lungs when you smoke it that makes it dangerous.
WILLIAMS: And I understand that, Aaron. But we have a policy when it comes to drugs that we utilize drugs that can be the most efficas (ph) against illness. Look, chemotherapy we know and radiation destroys non-ill cells, but at the same time we still put in it people to save their lives. There are 150, 160 pain medications out there. Not all of them work for individuals. But even with that said, what you just questioned why is our government dispensing something that they claim is wrong? Hear me, Aaron. There's a program that the United States government has had for 25 years.
BROWN: I know this. I really do.
WILLIAMS: Last month they just distributed marijuana. So if you don't think it's right why is our government saying that the patient that they are giving it to, his pain is worse than mine?
BROWN: Well, without taking the government's position here -- I don't take anybody's position here, they're just arguing this part of the testing process. Let me just ask one more thing that the government argues here. And I'm not sure -- it's interesting to me that...
WILLIAMS: I got to laugh on that one, though. The testing process is 25 years.
BROWN: Where this stuff is voted on -- people may be smarter than the government here in some respects, because where this stuff is voted on, I think Montana just passed it 60-some percent. People have sort of figured this out in their own way. But one of the arguments the government makes is that Marinol, the kind of -- the active -- in their view, the active ingredient, the THC extracted in artificial THC, whatever it is -- that Marinol does the job, so why not just take Marinol?
WILLIAMS: So false a claim. And they know it. All the studies have been done with Marinol have proven that its effects are so varied that you can't even come up with a consensus.
And number two, if that were the case, I get you. If our government believed that, then our government would be dispensing Marinol, but it's not. It is dispensing marijuana in the form of 50 marijuana cigarettes a month to seven patients.
In addition to that, right now, the UK and Canada have already approved a brand new drug that is made from marijuana. Is it a Mucosal spray. It can be sprayed if the mouth, subliminally taken and it is made from the real product. Our biggest ally in the war against terrorism has approved it for their country and it's going to be approved in Canada.
So, all we're is that if in fact, a doctor is smart enough to be able to prescribe for me or anybody else morphine or any other one of the drugs and that same doctor says to me, Montel, I think this will work, why do we not think that that doctor's smart enough to be able to prescribe it? And let's just make it for prescription use only. Easy, schedule one and schedule two, you take care of the problem.
BROWN: We -- actually, we'll watch this one pretty carefully. This is -- there are lots of good issues here that are medical issues, that are state's rights issues, there are individual rights issues. Lots of stuff and a reason for people to be interested in this. Good to meet you, if only electronically. We've watched you for a long time. It's nice to see you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks so much, Aaron.And let me just say -- the last thing -- it is also about compassion. There are a lot of people in this country who are ill, and are hurting. And this is an opportunity for a doctor-prescribed medication to relieve some of our pain. I don't understand where the question is.
BROWN: Good to meet you, sir. Thanks a lot.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
BROWN: And ahead on the program tonight, was there a third man in the Oklahoma City bombing? And a check of the headlines. Also, a look at a he man who once called -- who was once called Washington's mayor for life. What's Marion Berry up to? And he's had more lives than a cat here. We'll take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Still ahead on the program tonight, an all-female paintball team, very much on the rise. But as we led towards a quarter to the hour, Erica Hill is in Atlanta with another look at the day's headlines. Hey, Erica.
HILL: I got you here with the all-female news team, Aaron.
We'll get started with the news that tomorrow we're going to get Jennifer Wilbanks' side of the story. Something many people have been waiting for. The attorney for the runaway bride will release to the public what she calls a comprehensive statement with respect to Jennifer Wilbanks' circumstances during the past week.
And Terry Nichols who is serving a life sentence for the Oklahoma City bombing claims in a letter that an Arkansas gun collector provided some of the explosives used in the 1995 attack. The letter was sent to a woman who lost two grandchildren. The FBI said there is no indication the accusation is true.
Tonight, our anniversary series "Then & Now" profiles a man who has long been identified with local politics in Washington, D.C. Both the positive and the negative sides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARION BARRY, FRM. D.C. MAYOR: Marion Barry is the best and brightest for Washington, D.C.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Washington, D.C.'s self-proclaimed mayor for life, Marion Barry has known fame, fall from grace.
BARRY: While I wish I could trade this hour.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And political redemption. Born in Mississippi, Barry came to Washington in the '60s as a civil rights activist and never left. Barry was elected mayor of D.C. in 1978. And held that office for 12 years. But in 1990, Barry's reign ended with a cocaine arrest in an FBI sting operation. After searching six months in prison, he returned as a city council member, then reclaimed the mayor's office in 1994. But his fourth term was overshadowed with allegations of financial wrongdoing. But now, Marion Barry is back on the city council once again.
BARRY: I've been knocked down. Some say you fell down, put yourself down, but I got up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; He captured 96 percent of the vote in Washington's 8th ward, an area with the city's highest rates of poverty and unemployment.
BARRY: I ought to be tired by now after 40-some years of public service, 68 years of age. But I'm not. I just got my second wind.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As for his issues with drugs, Barry says it's all in the past and prefers not to talk about it. Married four times, he has one son, 24-year-old Marion Christopher Barry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Paintball, we're told it is one of the fastest growing extreme sports, 10 million players, most of them men. Most but not all. You're about to meet a group of women who got tired of sitting on the sidelines. And now they're on the rise.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the left! On the left!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're in (INAUDIBLE) Park in Ft. Myers, Florida, and we're having tryouts for our team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watch your backs. Watch your back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Femme Fatal is an all female paintball team. Out of all the other women teams we're number one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ready or not, here we come.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pretty much every team that we play an all- male team. And they really don't like to get shot by a woman at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're going to do one more snap shooting drill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the difference between my team and a male team is we reek sex appeal, and men just reek. Paint is pretty much a (INAUDIBLE) that you played as a child. You need to eliminate all your players that are coming at your form the opposing team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you this one shot, (INAUDIBLE), you don't get another chance.
Paintball's growing by leaps and bounds by the day.
In the past couple months we have gotten a lot of media attention. And it's good because women can see, hey, these chicks are doing it, they're moms, you know they're wives. You have to train. You have to get your body in shape. You can get very hurt in this sport. We've had people blow out their knees, bust their faces wide open.
You know when you run, you're diving into bunkers. You're sacrificing your limbs that god gave you.
I have a lot of battle wounds let me show you. And then you can see on the backside over on the arm. We play every three weeks in tournaments from February until November. And in that time is where we have to fit in our practices. There's the hard part, it's finding when to practice in between flying to and from tournaments. It's such an adrenaline rush that you can't get anywhere else. You go out there and your are allowed to shoot at people with markers and not go to jail for it, and not really hurt somebody.
That's fun.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Quick morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK. Time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world. Going to go really quickly tonight. "
The Guardian," British paper, "Poll says Labour," that's how they spell labor over there, "Will Win Historic Third Term. And Tony Blair will be prime minister again." A couple of scandals.
The "New Orleans Times Picayune," I had love that name. "Justice on Call: Judge Allen Green could be counted on to set bonds that would guarantee Bail Bonds Unlimited fat fees government wire taps show."
Ouch.
While on the other hand out west in Oregon, it wasn't a totally bad day for public officials. Former prosecutor receives verdict of his own -- not guilty. A jury acquits Randy Ray Richardson of bribery and jury tampering. So a 50-50 day for public officials in court.
"Newsday," "Try, Try Again." Pataki says architects will redesign Freedom Tower to fix security flaws.
My daughter will be anchoring the program by the time that is built.
The weather tomorrow in Chicago, quintessential. Figure out why.
We'll tell you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.
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