Fighting in Fallujah; Supreme Court Reviews Cheney's Meetings With Task Force
Aired April 27, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.We'll spend a fair amount of time tonight on the overnight fighting in Fallujah but it will be some time before we really understand its significance. Daylight will help some. We'll see the damage done, get a better guess of the casualties on each side but even that will be only a small part of a larger story.Will the firefight today made grander, we suspect, by the presence of cameras become a rallying cry for those in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world who already believe the worst about the United States? Will a majority of Iraqis, on the other hand, say the insurgents are making our lives a mess, both in the Sunni Triangle and in the south and better to deal with them now, however they have to be dealt with, than live like this forever, and that could happen?Whichever it is will matter, making things more or less safe for the Americans and the Iraqis alike depending but which it is, how it will play we do not yet know. It may be some time before we do.We start with what we do know and CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. It begins the whip, Jamie a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, despite today's devastating air strikes in Fallujah, the Pentagon insists a cease-fire is still in effect but you would be forgiven if you were confused about that cease-fire what with all the bullets flying and people dying.BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight. On to the political backdrop until July when it becomes the main event. CNN's David Ensor covering the sovereignty question and the new ambassador too, David a headline.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, at the U.N. and here in Washington, the pieces are being put in place for a different Iraq starting on the last day of June. The U.N.'s envoy Lakhdar Brahimi told the Security Council with Iraqi help he can and will put together a proposed government of technocrats and non-politicians to get Iraq through the next six to eight months until elections can be held. And, the first American ambassador to that new Iraq went before the Senate for confirmation hearings -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.And finally to the White House where all eyes were on the Supreme Court and what it might say about the vice president and his energy advisory board. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with us tonight, so John a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the issue is secrecy and, as you noted, the vice president's energy task force but this for the vice president is an issue he feels passionate about, a fight he has been waiting to fight for 30 years -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.Also coming up on the program tonight it's Republican versus Republican in Pennsylvania where a well known incumbent might be in trouble. The race has gone down to the wire and will help define what the Republican Party is these days.Plus, the pictures and the sounds of Fallujah and Iraq, the most shock and awe if you will we've seen in a while.And that, of course, will dominate morning papers too we suspect. We'll take a look at the papers that will land on your doorstep bright and early tomorrow morning, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin tonight in Fallujah the morning after a night of heavy bombardment from American gunships. It came, according to the U.S. military, in response to insurgent activity but does not, they say, necessarily signal the end of a shaky cease-fire that has existed in Fallujah for more than a week, a slim distinction perhaps but an important one.Marines surrounding the city enjoy an overwhelming advantage in raw power. Using that power, however, remains a political and strategic risk. So, as the night unfolded in Fallujah the Marines stayed put letting air power do most of the work, at least the work we could see.We have several reports tonight beginning with Karl Penhaul who is embedded with the Marines on the outskirts of Fallujah.
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KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nighttime in northwest Fallujah, a brief calm after a day of sporadic mortar and sniper attacks by Iraqi insurgents on U.S. Marine bases.Then the low drone overhead of a U.S. AC-130 Specter gunship, a modified transport plane. The thump of its 105mm cannons, then flashes light up the darkness. Round after round pound into suspected insurgent positions about three-quarters of a mile from where we're filming. Showers of sparks fly high, the glow of a fire set off by the air strike. Then slowly plumes of dense, black smoke drift across the Fallujah skyline. The gunship wheels around and returns to send cannon rounds slamming into a second suspected insurgent position close to the first.U.S. military officials say the strike was carried out by two Specter gunships. They say it was in response to a specific threat not the start of an all out offensive to seize back control of the city. This northwest sector of Fallujah is in the hands of Iraqi insurgents and what coalition authorities say are foreign fighters linked to al Qaeda.A little more than two weeks ago, coalition forces agreed to a cease-fire with civic and religious leaders in an effort to halt the heavy fighting but Marine commanders say the insurgents have refused to heed the call for a truce or to lay down their weapons and, with this latest air strike, coalition commanders appear to be hitting home the message to those insurgents surrender or face the consequences.Karl Penhaul reporting with the camera of John Templeton (ph) for the U.S. networks pool, Fallujah, Iraq.
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BROWN: When the Iraqi dead from this battle are buried chances are it will be in a soccer stadium that used to be called the Fallujah Sports Club. It is known today as the Fallujah Martyrs Cemetery, the name underscoring a reality.There are two wars being fought in Fallujah, seen differently by the two sides for many reasons, including how the events are being reported. Today, Secretary of State Powell told the foreign minister of Qatar that coverage undermines relations between the two countries. Al-Jazeera is based in Qatar and this is what he was talking about.
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BROWN (voice-over): The most watched newscast in the Arab world had clearly the best pictures of the night fighting in Fallujah and this is how their reporters described the scene."Severe clashes broke out tonight," says the Al-Jazeera reporter "between the American occupying forces and the Iraqi resistance fighters." There is no mention in the report of the Marine explanation that the attack began when the Iraqis started to fire on American units.This is what the Al-Jazeera correspondent reported. "A civilian house was severely destroyed. Two civilian cars were hit, one of the drivers wounded."On a different Arab television network Al Arabiya, a telephone report from one of its correspondents painted a horrible picture of civilian casualties in Fallujah on the order of 500 civilians killed, he said, 1,200 wounded. "More innocent Iraqi civilians are dying," said the Al Arabiya reporter. "What can be done at this point?" And then a man described by Al Arabiya as a military expert said by phone: "I wish all these people in Baghdad would live one night out of the last 23 nights in Fallujah so they can see with their own eyes what is going on here."There were no American military officials interviewed in the broadcasts that we saw.
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BROWN: And that is the version that most of the Arab world saw tonight.Now on to the whys of the story and perhaps the why not as well, why the bombardment, why not a broader invasion and why the coalition doesn't yet want to abandon a cease-fire that in truth barely exists?So from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
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MCINTYRE (voice-over): The U.S. military says this is not the Fallujah offensive but rather an aggressive self defense in response to hostile fire. For Marines who come under constant attack from the insurgents, the cease-fire is about ten percent cease and 90 percent fire.Here in video shot by pool journalists accompanying U.S. forces into combat, the Marines go after enemy fighters holed up in a mosque. One Marine was killed, several wounded in the fierce engagement and a tank took out the mosque's minaret the U.S. says was being used as a sniper's nest.The use of a place of worship to conduct military operations violates the Geneva Conventions and prompted Defense Secretary Rumsfeld to offer some advice and criticism to headline writers.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Terrorists attack coalition forces from mosques. That would be one way to present the information. Another might be to say mosques targeted in Fallujah. That was the "Los Angeles Times" headline this morning.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the Marines are holding off on the final push into Fallujah to give the failing negotiations with go- betweens one more chance.
RUMSFELD: But they believe what they're doing and the pace at which they're doing it is net in the interest of their goals.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It's worth a try.
RUMSFELD: It's worth a try.
MCINTYRE: Right after those hopeful comments, two U.S. AC-130 gunships pounded targets in Fallujah in response to what the U.S. says was another cease-fire violation, an attack on Marines dug in to defensive positions, just one more sign a showdown is coming.
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MCINTYRE: Leaflets dropped over Fallujah urged the insurgents to give up saying that they're surrounded. The leaflet says "we're coming to arrest you." It also says "if you are a terrorist beware because your last day was yesterday" -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let me throw out a question. I think it's going to come back a couple of times yet tonight. From the perspective of the Pentagon in terms of the long term stability of Iraq how dangerous do they believe going in there and sort of clearing out the city in a big offensive movement how dangerous is that to the stability of the country?
MCINTYRE: Well, they're very concerned about creating an anti- U.S. backlash with this operation and, what we're told from Pentagon officials is don't look for a big shock and awe offensive in which a lot of things are going to happen at once. What you're going to see, they say, is a very slow, methodical, deliberate targeting of insurgents gradually and increasing the pressure on them and trying to minimize civilian casualties. They're very sensitive and upset about the coverage that this has been getting in the Arab press that you mentioned tonight. They insist that it's been distorted and that the U.S. has been taking great pains to avoid civilian casualties and because of that they're looking for, as I said, a slow, methodical campaign not something that's going to start with a big splash.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you again, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.In just 64 days, two months and change, Iraqis are scheduled to take back control of their country more or less more so than they now have. They'll run the day-to-day affairs of Iraq but they'll not control security and they will not likely be able to pass laws.The most powerful person in Iraq will not be an Iraqi at all. It will be an American, as it is now. That American the president's choice to be the new ambassador went before the Senate today.CNN's David Ensor joins us with more on that and other diplomatic matters from Washington, David good evening.
ENSOR: Good evening, Aaron.Well, the devil is certainly in the details and there were not many on offer before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today as U.N. Ambassador John Negroponte appeared seeking confirmation as this nation's first ambassador to the new Iraq.
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SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Would you understanding of a limited, sovereign Iraqi government have veto authority over proposed military action like going into Fallujah, for example?
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: I think that that is going to be the kind of situation that is going to have to, in addition to everything else, be the subject of real dialogue between our military commanders, the new Iraqi government and I think the United States mission as well.
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ENSOR: Committee members praise Negroponte's courage for being willing to take the job, all the more so said some Democrats since they say they believe international support is waning. Negroponte said that though the sovereignty Iraqis will regain June 30th will be limited in some ways, it will be much more than they've had thus far and he expects a greater sense of Iraqi ownership of their country should be a real step forward -- Aaron.
BROWN: He goes over there, assuming he's confirmed, he takes office on the 1st of July, right?
ENSOR: That's right.
BROWN: Just in the sort of day to day, do we really know how different life will be in Iraq on the 1st of July?
ENSOR: Well, he talked about the ministries of the new Iraqi government taking over more and more control of the everyday life of the country but he conceded that on the security front there isn't an Iraqi army worthy of the name that can take over yet. It's going to be quite some time before American and coalition forces are able to leave that country.
BROWN: And we still don't know who is in that government and that will be a month before we do?
ENSOR: Well, Lakhdar Brahimi said today that he thinks he can put together a government of technocrats and people who are not going to run for office in the parliament later on and he'll be able to name that by about the 1st of June, which will give this group about a month to get ready to take power.
BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.Two cities clearly dominated the headlines out of Iraq today, Fallujah of course, the other Najaf where funerals were held after a pair of battles between the militia of Muqtada al-Sadr and American forces. The U.S. reports as many as 64 rebels were killed.Another piece of the picture, all of it being reported ably in the pages of the "New York Times" by John Burns and his colleagues. Mr. Burns joins us tonight from Baghdad. It's good to see you, John. Thank you. First on Fallujah, what are you hearing the damage was last night?
JOHN BURNS, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I think everybody was very surprised at the sudden turn of events. Towards nightfall in Baghdad on Tuesday, what we were hearing from the American military commanders and from Mr. Bremer and his officials here in Baghdad was a distinct turn towards a peaceful solution in Fallujah, an emphasis on attempts to lure the insurgents in Fallujah, if you will, into the American program of reconstruction and peace.And then all of a sudden towards the middle of the evening here all hell broke loose in Fallujah and it's unclear yet quite why that was. There was a cease-fire violation alleged by the Americans but I don't think that even they had imagined that things could turn quite so violent in such a short period of time.And I think it will some time before we know what the downstream consequences of this are, whether it's still realistic to believe that there can be a peaceful outcome in Fallujah or not.
BROWN: Just this question of downstream consequences, which is an interesting phrase, take Fallujah on the one hand and Najaf on the other, beyond the difference in the characters in each place how are these two cities and the fights that are going on for the two cities different in terms of the problems the Americans face?
BURNS: Well, of course, the principal characteristic of Najaf is that it's the holiest city in the Shiite world and that Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most powerful of all the Shiite clerics has declared a red line, as he calls it, around Najaf and it has seemed increasingly unlikely that the United States military command here will want to deal with Muqtada al-Sadr, the rebel cleric, Shiite cleric, by going into Najaf.I think that they hope that the Shiite religious establishment will deal with that, that public opinion will deal with that and that Mr. Sadr's supporters will kind of melt away. There's been some evidence that that's happening already.The attack on his forces north of Kufa, outside of the Najaf area but not very far that killed 65 of his people, 64, 65 of his people on Monday, it's quite notable that the bodies as they were loaded into trucks in Najaf yesterday to be carried away for burial they were not wearing his black uniforms.This seems to be a result of the rise of a new militia, a kind of shadowy death squad, if you will, that has started killing Sadr's own people. It's possible that Sadr's power could begin to evanesce and that the one thing that might save him would be an American invasion of Najaf itself, which would rally people to his side.BROWN: John, on that point, I saw your reporting on that this morning that there is this group. Do we know anything about this group and who they are aligned with, if they are aligned, where their loyalties are?
BURNS: We know nothing at all about it. I think the American military command knows nothing at all about it but I think you have to put it together with the sermons that have been made in the principal mosques of Najaf against Muqtada al-Sadr with what we're hearing from our own people down in Najaf which is that public opinion has moved strongly against him.And, I think that the American command can hope by simply increasing military pressure outside the city, without going into the city, that Muqtada al-Sadr will be bankrupted by these events that his people under threat of assassination and a number of them have been assassinated we believe, four of five of them in the last 72 hours, that the jig could be up for him there and that it's better to stay out than to go in.I think Fallujah is a different case all together. They have a very large group of insurgents in Fallujah, according to American military estimates, perhaps as many as 2,000, among them probably 200 or so hardcore al Qaeda-linked fighters. This is a city only 30 miles from Baghdad astride one of the principal highways connecting Baghdad in this case to Jordan.I think they've always known they would have to do something about it but there seems to have been a decision prior to last night's eruption of violence to try and deal with that too in a peaceful way. That's always seemed very improbable to me. Last night's events seem to make it even more improbable and there looks like a rocky road for the American military to travel in Fallujah before that situation can be resolved, if it can be resolved.
BROWN: I know you have a lot of work ahead of you today. We appreciate the time you're able to give us always. Thank you. Stay safe. John Burns of the "New York Times" with us tonight.One more item here before we go to break. Hard to know precisely what to make of this, especially the whys. There were explosions and a gun battle in the streets of the Syrian capital today, Damascus. Witnesses heard at least six loud explosions around eight o'clock local time in the evening, a neighborhood housing a number of western and Iranian diplomats.Syrian authorities say a group of terrorists set off a bomb, then shot at and tossed grenades at police, the battle lasting about an hour. Four people died, two militants, one Syrian officer and a bystander. No word yet on who was behind the mayhem today in Damascus.Ahead on the program tonight, top secret business or business as usual, the vice president's case goes to the U.S. Supreme Court.Also coming up the primary race in Pennsylvania down to the wire. We'll check on that too.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: Sometime this summer the U.S. Supreme Court will decide whether the White House has the constitutional right to keep the details of the vice president's energy task force secret. We know that many oil industry executives met with the vice president, including Enron's Ken Lay but we know far less about what role they or other interest groups had in the actual formation of policy.At the heart of the case are two differing views of the presidency itself and the White House belief that over two generations the presidency has been dangerously weakened.Here's our Senior White House Correspondent John King.
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KING (voice-over): On the campaign trail, a very public role leading the attack against Democrat John Kerry.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is irresponsible to vote against vital support for the United States military.
KING: But this a vice president whose most important work is done in private in the Oval Office here and who is the leader of an aggressive effort to defend a president's right to conduct some business in secret.
ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, you know, we don't operate in government on a baseline that everything is open to the public.
KING: At issue now, the Supreme Court case about whether some records of the vice president's energy task force should be made public. A lower court said yes and the White House appealed.Democrats in Congress and other critics call it proof of a White House obsessed with secrecy on issues ranging from the energy task force to blocking access to information about terror suspects detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
CHERYL MILLS, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COUNSEL: This administration is much more conservative on the issue or privilege and much more I'd say aggressive about asserting it or asserting those things that are similar to it.
KING: Not so says the president's top lawyer.
GONZALES: In most cases we are able to reach an accommodate and that's why in the history of this administration only once has this president asserted executive privilege.
KING: Just recently, these compromises. The 9/11 Commission finally won access to a presidential intelligence briefing Mr. Bush received five weeks before the terrorist attacks and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testified before the commission after months in which the White House said no.
NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST.: Every president, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, oftentimes faced with immediate political pressures has kind of caved or given in on executive responsibilities.
KING: That the White House did not give in this time and appealed the energy task force case to the Supreme Court reflects Mr. Cheney's unrivaled clout within the White House.
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KING: And it reflects this vice president's passionate view that over the past 30 years, presidential privilege and presidential power has eroded dangerously, in his view, Aaron, beginning in Watergate, the vice president believes, and including a decision made by the first president he worked for Gerald Ford to give into pressure and to testify to Congress about his controversial decision to pardon Richard Nixon -- Aaron.
BROWN: Tests and the limits of presidential power and authority go back to the Supreme Court tomorrow in the Padilla -- I think it's tomorrow, I know it's this week, the Padilla and Hamdi cases that may be the most controversial of all.
KING: Certainly more significant if you are looking at the continued prosecution of the war on terrorism. This administration making the case that it has the right in some cases to deny attorneys to those being held, as suspects at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere and that it has the right to deny information, the administration drawing a very hard line on these key issues. And, you are right, those arguments tomorrow in the Padilla case.
BROWN: Even when they are American citizens in the cases of Padilla and Hamdi.
KING: If the administration believes it can meet the test that they are a terrorist threat operating within this country it believes it has extraordinary rights. Again, that is one of the few questions and on this question in the lower courts and even at the Supreme Court there's been a great deal of skepticism. Tomorrow's arguments will be quite interesting.
BROWN: I think they're going to be fascinating. John, thank you, John King our White House Correspondent tonight.A few other items that made news around the country today. Senator John Kerry has accepted an invitation to give a speech at Westminster College in Missouri. You may remember that yesterday the vice president lit into him at that university. Shortly thereafter the college president invited Mr. Kerry saying he was distressed that the vice president used the speech at his college for attacks.The wreckage of a missing Army helicopter was found tonight in a patch of woods near Interstate 97 in South Carolina, no sign of survivors at the scene. The three crewmen now presumed to have perished.And police in Phoenix, Arizona are looking for a gunman who shot and killed two people at a trucking company there this morning. They do have a suspect, a man named Howard Fisk (ph) who they say knew the victims and had threatened them recently.Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, shaky cease-fires in the north, militant uprisings in the south, why the whole of Iraq seems to be caught up in a most uncivil war, a break first.Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: It will be a year ago this weekend that the president declared major combat over in Iraq. What has become painfully clear is that the relatively easy victory on the road to Baghdad a year ago told but a part of the story. One statistic tells a lot: 150 Americans died in the march to Baghdad a year ago; 150 Americans have died so far this month in Iraq. For those that know the region, Fallujah and Najaf are always potential land mines. Ken Pollack joins us from Washington. He is the director of the Saban Center of Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution and an analyst for us. Here in New York, Bernard Haykel. He teaches Middle Eastern and Islamic studies at New York University. And we're glad to have you both here. Professor, let me start with you. Is it the -- Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon reported earlier that there was this hope that maybe the insurgents in Fallujah would kind of buy into the program, that they have a future in the country. They'll get their sewers fixed, the water running, the schools rebuilt, the hospitals going and everything will be OK for them and there will be a peaceful way out of this. Is there, do you think? Is that realistic?
BERNARD HAYKEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: No, I think that one has to look at the reasons why they really are so adamantly against the U.S. occupation. If you look at the people there, most of them are officers at the two bases that were in the area. They worked in the army. They were high officers in the army of Saddam Hussein. And they're out of a job. They've been out of a job and they have no prospects of coming back in. And one of the mistakes we made was to disband the army. BROWN: Well, but we tried to correct that last week.
HAYKEL: But, clearly, they haven't been given sufficient guarantees. And more importantly they represent the Sunni Arab population, who feel that they're the losers in all of this.
BROWN: Well, they are the losers in all of this.
HAYKEL: And they will be spoilers as long as we don't give them some guarantee of a role in the future of Iraq.
BROWN: Ken, let's just stay in Fallujah before we move south. Is there in your mind, other than rewriting history, which neither of us can do, none of us can do, is there a peaceful way out of this or is it going to end ugly this week, next week, a month from now, some point?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Aaron, I've got to be honest with you. I'm really distressed by what I'm seeing in Fallujah. As you point out, I think the best answer was never to have started down this course. You'll remember when you and I spoke the night that those four contractors were mutilated in Fallujah, a point that I tried to make was, we shouldn't concentrate on revenge; we should concentrate on preventing future incidents like this, because trying to deal with the situation in Fallujah through violence was not going to work.And unfortunately that's the path we have started down. And I think we have got ourselves into a real catch-22. If we go into Fallujah, even though it is the Marines and they're very good at this and they will proceed as best they can, it is still a very high likelihood that we're going to have a lot of bloodshed, a lot of stuff for Al-Jazeera to put on the air.On the other hand, if we don't go into Fallujah, we're going to be handing a huge psychological victory to the resistance in Fallujah, who -- I absolutely agree with Dr. Haykel -- they feel completely alienated from the process of reconstruction.
BROWN: Just going back to the beginning, again, we can't change this, but if you're at the CPA or you're at -- in the American military, and you see this incredible scene of lawlessness that played out, where the four contractors died, their bodies mutilated, hung from bridges, the whole nine yards, you've got to do something. Don't you lose face in the country by doing nothing also?
POLLACK: Certainly, doing nothing is difficult to do. But I think that you need to recognize that there is a difference between steps that can help you down the road and steps that can make the situation worse. And I think that concentrating on Fallujah would have been a smart thing. But simply mounting a major military operation was always going to get you into this catch-22. And I think that the smarter approach would have been to recognize we do have a problem in Fallujah. It is probably a problem we should have dealt with 12 months ago. But now at this point in time, we have got to take a combined political and military approach, again, as Dr. Haykel was kind of suggesting in his remarks. BROWN: Let me go back to that, Professor. Who needs to do that? That's clearly not the job of the Marine commander on the ground.
HAYKEL: No.
BROWN: Is that the CPA's job? Does the CPA in fact have the resources? Is this the Iraqi Governing Council that has to do that? Because I'm not sure that they have the courage to do that or the support within the country to do that.
HAYKEL: Well, I think that we have to come at it, you know, with a number -- a combined approach that has to include the regional actors. For instance, Saudi Arabia has been left out of the picture completely, Iran more or less completely. We have a problem with Iran and Syria, because a lot of fighters are coming in across the borders. And more importantly, Fallujah is being used now as a symbol, like Kana was in South Lebanon, as this great sort of point of Islamic resistance to an infidel army. As a public relations campaign, this is a complete victory for al Qaeda. We have Marines in mosques walking around with their shoes and boots and rifles. This will play in the Arab and Muslim street like nothing since, you know, since the invasion of Iraq to begin with.
BROWN: Ken, let me give you the last word. This has obviously been -- even -- nobody would describe this month as anything but awful over there from every perspective imaginable. Is there -- do you to see in anything that has gone on any light? Should we be encouraged, for example, that Najaf has not exploded?
POLLACK: I will say that I think that there were some positive signs, in particular the fact that the majority of the Shiite leaders, Ayatollah Sistani, the other members of the
(CROSSTALK)
POLLACK: ... very specifically said to their followers, don't join Muqtada al-Sadr, don't join the uprising. His path is not the best path for us. That's very important to remember. And it is something that we have to capitalize on moving forward.
BROWN: So at least, in what has been a very difficult month and will end as a very difficult month, the worst since the war, there are small signs in important places that it is not all bad, I guess, huh?
POLLACK: I think that's right. And it gives me hope that there is still enough of a reservoir of public support for the reconstruction and of hope on the part of Iraq's mainstream leadership that we can build -- rebuild a partnership and move forward. But we absolutely have to take this as a warning sign that if we continue down the same course that we have been following, we're going to continue to alienate Iraqis and these kind of outbreaks in the future are just going to be worse and worse.
BROWN: Ken, good to see you. Professor, good to have you. Hope you'll come back.
HAYKEL: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Maybe May will be better. We can all hope. Thank you.
HAYKEL: Thank you.
BROWN: Still to come tonight, a bit of domestic politics, a tight race in Pennsylvania, where an important primary may just be a sign of things to come in the battle for the U.S. Senate. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
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BROWN: Last night, we previewed the Senate Republican primary race in Pennsylvania, one of the most closely watched primary races in the country all year. Senator Arlen Specter, the senior senator in the state, is fighting one of the toughest fights of his political career. And it is coming within his own party, the race widely thought to be a test of the Republican Party's tolerance for moderates within its own ranks. CNN's Joe Johns joins us tonight from Philadelphia. Joe, Good evening.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. An old-fashioned brawl here in Pennsylvania. Senator Arlen Specter with 55 percent of the vote in was leading 52-48. We didn't really know what that means. It was expected to be a long evening. Both sides thought they were going to be counting votes late into the night. Senator Specter after the polls closed came out and talked to some of his supporters.
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SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: It has been a very, very difficult campaign, as I know all of you sense. When we have had the kind of an invasion on a number of lines from most importantly the Wall Street financiers who have pumped millions of dollars into the campaign and when we have candidate been to all the church parking lots on Sunday and found so much adverse literature focusing solely on the abortion issue, we have had our hands full.
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JOHNS: Now the challenger, of course, is Congressman Pat Toomey. He has spent a lot of his time around Allentown. That of course is his stronghold. He needs big support from the central part of the state, people who are against abortion, against more taxes, and, frankly against Arlen Specter, who many of them believe is simply too liberal. This race has had a lot of impact. It has had a lot of national focus because, of course, it is a swing state, also because the president of the United States has put himself on the line campaigning for the incumbent, Arlen Specter. It is not necessarily because Republicans think Specter is such a fine candidate and they agree with everything he says. They say it is because they're concerned that Pat Toomey might not be able to pull it out in November because, as one person here said, a lot of people stayed on the couches today, but they won't stay on the couches in November, not strong turnout tonight -- Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: The state is a bit hard to read in some respects. The other senator, Rick Santorum, is quite conservative in the state. So it is not clear that Congressman Toomey would get -- would lose in the fall. It's not clear to me at least.
JOHNS: No, you're absolutely right. And that's one of the points you to reemphasize here. Senator Santorum has gotten a lot of support. He's very popular here. And he's done quite well. So it is not a foregone conclusion that Pat Toomey will lose. However, a lot of people are expected to come out. And the question, as you know, is swing voters and what will those swing voters do if Pat Toomey is on the ticket. That is probably the bottom line for a lot of folks tonight, Aaron.
BROWN: Joe, thank you very much -- Joe Johns in Philadelphia reporting for us tonight. Ahead on the program, Fallujah once again. We'll show it to you as it played out overnight in Iraq. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to the beginning in Fallujah. No words here, just the sounds of the fight overnight. No experts to kick it around, just the scene as it unfolded. As it plays out, a chance to consider how difficult a month it has been for the U.S. side, which has lost 115 soldiers and Marines, and from the Iraqi side, which has taken some -- we don't really know how many -- civilian deaths as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we're seeing now about 800 (INAUDIBLE) or one kilometer south of the Marine position is a bombardment by an AC-130 Spectre gunship. The AC-130 is still overhead. Again, we can see more explosions there. What we can see from here looks like the two positions have been hit. those two positions, possibly 100, 150 yards apart. As I say, no confirmation at this stage from U.S. Marine commanders what those positions may have been. But certainly, the indication that those were insurgent positions. In the distance there, what we've just seen is a fairly large secondary explosion and a small mushroom cloud rising there. Again, this could be another indication that this was some kind of weapons store or an ammunitions store. Certainly that explosion, we don't believe at this stage, was caused by any more coalition strikes on that area. ]We can see now going across in the sky, if you managed to see that, the flash tracer fire. Those tracers are going out from a coalition position, a U.S. Marine position a little ways from where we are standing. It's the same Marine company, Echo Company that we're with. That's the position; they've been sending out the tracer fire there. You probably won't be able to pick these sounds up from our camera microphone, but all the time that these attacks have been going on in the distance, we can hear chants and songs from one of the many mosques in Fallujah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the country, because I don't really see any ones that are outside the country today. Kind of an interesting mix between -- no, let me do that differently -- a really interesting mix between local stories and national and international stories on the front pages of the paper.
"The Washington Times," the conservative paper in the Washington, D.C., area, editorially, at least, on the editorial pages, and sometimes I think on the front page, too, but not necessarily today. "Still Bullish." I have no idea -- you can't see that, can you? Can you go down there a little bit. I don't know why they put a bullfight on the front page, but they did. But that's not their lead. "U.S. Planes Rock Fallujah" and a very good picture on the front page as well, also, the Syrian thing, which, honestly, we don't really know much about. "Terrorists Killed in Syrian Attack."
And that's pretty much the front page of "The Washington Times." One good local story having to do with college athletic directors. I love this story because it raises, like -- it raises all sorts of questions. I started to talk like my daughter for a second, didn't I, like?
"South Florida Loses Funds For School. Budget Agreement Denies Millions in School Money For Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, Inflicting a Defeat on the Region's Legislators." In this space, two years from now, you'll see, local students not doing as well in school and people will wonder why it is and it might have something to do with that, or perhaps it will not. That's -- thank you.
That's coming up later. "Philadelphia Inquirer" leads politically. "Toomey, Specter Locked in Tight Race For Senate." We told you about that. And nobody voted. I like that. Well, obviously, some people did. "Despite National Attention, Voter Turnout Was Low." That sometimes happens. Things that we care a lot about, people back there in the home states don't. I hadn't seen this one. This one just kind of snuck up on me.
"The Oregonian" out there in Portland, Oregon, the Rose City, one of the prettiest cities in the country. "U.S. Presses Attack in Fallujah." We haven't seen this paper in a while. And I'm glad to see it. Also on the front page, they put the vice president's case before the Supreme Court on the front page. It may have been on others, but I haven't seen it. "Justices Seem to See Cheney Side of Talks. Supreme Court Appears to Lean Toward Executive Privilege in Energy Task Force Case." At least that's how "The Oregonian" and "The Washington Post" writer who wrote the story for "The Oregonian" saw it. Ah, one of my favorites,
"The Burt County Plaindealer" in Burt County, Nebraska. It is a weekly paper. And the big story there is spring. "Stores Stocking Up for Planning" -- planting, that would be, Aaron. Planting. And, also, the gun locks are here, if you're in that town. How we doing on time? Almost done. That would be time to do the weather. In that case, "For shizzle." Beats me. It's the weather in Chicago. I can tell you it is going to be terrific, 74 degrees. Very nice. We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tomorrow, the U.S. Supreme Court hears the Padilla case, the power of the president and an American citizen -- that and much more.We'll see you at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 27, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.We'll spend a fair amount of time tonight on the overnight fighting in Fallujah but it will be some time before we really understand its significance. Daylight will help some. We'll see the damage done, get a better guess of the casualties on each side but even that will be only a small part of a larger story.Will the firefight today made grander, we suspect, by the presence of cameras become a rallying cry for those in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world who already believe the worst about the United States? Will a majority of Iraqis, on the other hand, say the insurgents are making our lives a mess, both in the Sunni Triangle and in the south and better to deal with them now, however they have to be dealt with, than live like this forever, and that could happen?Whichever it is will matter, making things more or less safe for the Americans and the Iraqis alike depending but which it is, how it will play we do not yet know. It may be some time before we do.We start with what we do know and CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. It begins the whip, Jamie a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, despite today's devastating air strikes in Fallujah, the Pentagon insists a cease-fire is still in effect but you would be forgiven if you were confused about that cease-fire what with all the bullets flying and people dying.BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight. On to the political backdrop until July when it becomes the main event. CNN's David Ensor covering the sovereignty question and the new ambassador too, David a headline.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, at the U.N. and here in Washington, the pieces are being put in place for a different Iraq starting on the last day of June. The U.N.'s envoy Lakhdar Brahimi told the Security Council with Iraqi help he can and will put together a proposed government of technocrats and non-politicians to get Iraq through the next six to eight months until elections can be held. And, the first American ambassador to that new Iraq went before the Senate for confirmation hearings -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.And finally to the White House where all eyes were on the Supreme Court and what it might say about the vice president and his energy advisory board. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with us tonight, so John a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the issue is secrecy and, as you noted, the vice president's energy task force but this for the vice president is an issue he feels passionate about, a fight he has been waiting to fight for 30 years -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.Also coming up on the program tonight it's Republican versus Republican in Pennsylvania where a well known incumbent might be in trouble. The race has gone down to the wire and will help define what the Republican Party is these days.Plus, the pictures and the sounds of Fallujah and Iraq, the most shock and awe if you will we've seen in a while.And that, of course, will dominate morning papers too we suspect. We'll take a look at the papers that will land on your doorstep bright and early tomorrow morning, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin tonight in Fallujah the morning after a night of heavy bombardment from American gunships. It came, according to the U.S. military, in response to insurgent activity but does not, they say, necessarily signal the end of a shaky cease-fire that has existed in Fallujah for more than a week, a slim distinction perhaps but an important one.Marines surrounding the city enjoy an overwhelming advantage in raw power. Using that power, however, remains a political and strategic risk. So, as the night unfolded in Fallujah the Marines stayed put letting air power do most of the work, at least the work we could see.We have several reports tonight beginning with Karl Penhaul who is embedded with the Marines on the outskirts of Fallujah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nighttime in northwest Fallujah, a brief calm after a day of sporadic mortar and sniper attacks by Iraqi insurgents on U.S. Marine bases.Then the low drone overhead of a U.S. AC-130 Specter gunship, a modified transport plane. The thump of its 105mm cannons, then flashes light up the darkness. Round after round pound into suspected insurgent positions about three-quarters of a mile from where we're filming. Showers of sparks fly high, the glow of a fire set off by the air strike. Then slowly plumes of dense, black smoke drift across the Fallujah skyline. The gunship wheels around and returns to send cannon rounds slamming into a second suspected insurgent position close to the first.U.S. military officials say the strike was carried out by two Specter gunships. They say it was in response to a specific threat not the start of an all out offensive to seize back control of the city. This northwest sector of Fallujah is in the hands of Iraqi insurgents and what coalition authorities say are foreign fighters linked to al Qaeda.A little more than two weeks ago, coalition forces agreed to a cease-fire with civic and religious leaders in an effort to halt the heavy fighting but Marine commanders say the insurgents have refused to heed the call for a truce or to lay down their weapons and, with this latest air strike, coalition commanders appear to be hitting home the message to those insurgents surrender or face the consequences.Karl Penhaul reporting with the camera of John Templeton (ph) for the U.S. networks pool, Fallujah, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When the Iraqi dead from this battle are buried chances are it will be in a soccer stadium that used to be called the Fallujah Sports Club. It is known today as the Fallujah Martyrs Cemetery, the name underscoring a reality.There are two wars being fought in Fallujah, seen differently by the two sides for many reasons, including how the events are being reported. Today, Secretary of State Powell told the foreign minister of Qatar that coverage undermines relations between the two countries. Al-Jazeera is based in Qatar and this is what he was talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): The most watched newscast in the Arab world had clearly the best pictures of the night fighting in Fallujah and this is how their reporters described the scene."Severe clashes broke out tonight," says the Al-Jazeera reporter "between the American occupying forces and the Iraqi resistance fighters." There is no mention in the report of the Marine explanation that the attack began when the Iraqis started to fire on American units.This is what the Al-Jazeera correspondent reported. "A civilian house was severely destroyed. Two civilian cars were hit, one of the drivers wounded."On a different Arab television network Al Arabiya, a telephone report from one of its correspondents painted a horrible picture of civilian casualties in Fallujah on the order of 500 civilians killed, he said, 1,200 wounded. "More innocent Iraqi civilians are dying," said the Al Arabiya reporter. "What can be done at this point?" And then a man described by Al Arabiya as a military expert said by phone: "I wish all these people in Baghdad would live one night out of the last 23 nights in Fallujah so they can see with their own eyes what is going on here."There were no American military officials interviewed in the broadcasts that we saw.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that is the version that most of the Arab world saw tonight.Now on to the whys of the story and perhaps the why not as well, why the bombardment, why not a broader invasion and why the coalition doesn't yet want to abandon a cease-fire that in truth barely exists?So from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): The U.S. military says this is not the Fallujah offensive but rather an aggressive self defense in response to hostile fire. For Marines who come under constant attack from the insurgents, the cease-fire is about ten percent cease and 90 percent fire.Here in video shot by pool journalists accompanying U.S. forces into combat, the Marines go after enemy fighters holed up in a mosque. One Marine was killed, several wounded in the fierce engagement and a tank took out the mosque's minaret the U.S. says was being used as a sniper's nest.The use of a place of worship to conduct military operations violates the Geneva Conventions and prompted Defense Secretary Rumsfeld to offer some advice and criticism to headline writers.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Terrorists attack coalition forces from mosques. That would be one way to present the information. Another might be to say mosques targeted in Fallujah. That was the "Los Angeles Times" headline this morning.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the Marines are holding off on the final push into Fallujah to give the failing negotiations with go- betweens one more chance.
RUMSFELD: But they believe what they're doing and the pace at which they're doing it is net in the interest of their goals.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It's worth a try.
RUMSFELD: It's worth a try.
MCINTYRE: Right after those hopeful comments, two U.S. AC-130 gunships pounded targets in Fallujah in response to what the U.S. says was another cease-fire violation, an attack on Marines dug in to defensive positions, just one more sign a showdown is coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Leaflets dropped over Fallujah urged the insurgents to give up saying that they're surrounded. The leaflet says "we're coming to arrest you." It also says "if you are a terrorist beware because your last day was yesterday" -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let me throw out a question. I think it's going to come back a couple of times yet tonight. From the perspective of the Pentagon in terms of the long term stability of Iraq how dangerous do they believe going in there and sort of clearing out the city in a big offensive movement how dangerous is that to the stability of the country?
MCINTYRE: Well, they're very concerned about creating an anti- U.S. backlash with this operation and, what we're told from Pentagon officials is don't look for a big shock and awe offensive in which a lot of things are going to happen at once. What you're going to see, they say, is a very slow, methodical, deliberate targeting of insurgents gradually and increasing the pressure on them and trying to minimize civilian casualties. They're very sensitive and upset about the coverage that this has been getting in the Arab press that you mentioned tonight. They insist that it's been distorted and that the U.S. has been taking great pains to avoid civilian casualties and because of that they're looking for, as I said, a slow, methodical campaign not something that's going to start with a big splash.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you again, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.In just 64 days, two months and change, Iraqis are scheduled to take back control of their country more or less more so than they now have. They'll run the day-to-day affairs of Iraq but they'll not control security and they will not likely be able to pass laws.The most powerful person in Iraq will not be an Iraqi at all. It will be an American, as it is now. That American the president's choice to be the new ambassador went before the Senate today.CNN's David Ensor joins us with more on that and other diplomatic matters from Washington, David good evening.
ENSOR: Good evening, Aaron.Well, the devil is certainly in the details and there were not many on offer before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today as U.N. Ambassador John Negroponte appeared seeking confirmation as this nation's first ambassador to the new Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Would you understanding of a limited, sovereign Iraqi government have veto authority over proposed military action like going into Fallujah, for example?
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: I think that that is going to be the kind of situation that is going to have to, in addition to everything else, be the subject of real dialogue between our military commanders, the new Iraqi government and I think the United States mission as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Committee members praise Negroponte's courage for being willing to take the job, all the more so said some Democrats since they say they believe international support is waning. Negroponte said that though the sovereignty Iraqis will regain June 30th will be limited in some ways, it will be much more than they've had thus far and he expects a greater sense of Iraqi ownership of their country should be a real step forward -- Aaron.
BROWN: He goes over there, assuming he's confirmed, he takes office on the 1st of July, right?
ENSOR: That's right.
BROWN: Just in the sort of day to day, do we really know how different life will be in Iraq on the 1st of July?
ENSOR: Well, he talked about the ministries of the new Iraqi government taking over more and more control of the everyday life of the country but he conceded that on the security front there isn't an Iraqi army worthy of the name that can take over yet. It's going to be quite some time before American and coalition forces are able to leave that country.
BROWN: And we still don't know who is in that government and that will be a month before we do?
ENSOR: Well, Lakhdar Brahimi said today that he thinks he can put together a government of technocrats and people who are not going to run for office in the parliament later on and he'll be able to name that by about the 1st of June, which will give this group about a month to get ready to take power.
BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.Two cities clearly dominated the headlines out of Iraq today, Fallujah of course, the other Najaf where funerals were held after a pair of battles between the militia of Muqtada al-Sadr and American forces. The U.S. reports as many as 64 rebels were killed.Another piece of the picture, all of it being reported ably in the pages of the "New York Times" by John Burns and his colleagues. Mr. Burns joins us tonight from Baghdad. It's good to see you, John. Thank you. First on Fallujah, what are you hearing the damage was last night?
JOHN BURNS, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I think everybody was very surprised at the sudden turn of events. Towards nightfall in Baghdad on Tuesday, what we were hearing from the American military commanders and from Mr. Bremer and his officials here in Baghdad was a distinct turn towards a peaceful solution in Fallujah, an emphasis on attempts to lure the insurgents in Fallujah, if you will, into the American program of reconstruction and peace.And then all of a sudden towards the middle of the evening here all hell broke loose in Fallujah and it's unclear yet quite why that was. There was a cease-fire violation alleged by the Americans but I don't think that even they had imagined that things could turn quite so violent in such a short period of time.And I think it will some time before we know what the downstream consequences of this are, whether it's still realistic to believe that there can be a peaceful outcome in Fallujah or not.
BROWN: Just this question of downstream consequences, which is an interesting phrase, take Fallujah on the one hand and Najaf on the other, beyond the difference in the characters in each place how are these two cities and the fights that are going on for the two cities different in terms of the problems the Americans face?
BURNS: Well, of course, the principal characteristic of Najaf is that it's the holiest city in the Shiite world and that Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most powerful of all the Shiite clerics has declared a red line, as he calls it, around Najaf and it has seemed increasingly unlikely that the United States military command here will want to deal with Muqtada al-Sadr, the rebel cleric, Shiite cleric, by going into Najaf.I think that they hope that the Shiite religious establishment will deal with that, that public opinion will deal with that and that Mr. Sadr's supporters will kind of melt away. There's been some evidence that that's happening already.The attack on his forces north of Kufa, outside of the Najaf area but not very far that killed 65 of his people, 64, 65 of his people on Monday, it's quite notable that the bodies as they were loaded into trucks in Najaf yesterday to be carried away for burial they were not wearing his black uniforms.This seems to be a result of the rise of a new militia, a kind of shadowy death squad, if you will, that has started killing Sadr's own people. It's possible that Sadr's power could begin to evanesce and that the one thing that might save him would be an American invasion of Najaf itself, which would rally people to his side.BROWN: John, on that point, I saw your reporting on that this morning that there is this group. Do we know anything about this group and who they are aligned with, if they are aligned, where their loyalties are?
BURNS: We know nothing at all about it. I think the American military command knows nothing at all about it but I think you have to put it together with the sermons that have been made in the principal mosques of Najaf against Muqtada al-Sadr with what we're hearing from our own people down in Najaf which is that public opinion has moved strongly against him.And, I think that the American command can hope by simply increasing military pressure outside the city, without going into the city, that Muqtada al-Sadr will be bankrupted by these events that his people under threat of assassination and a number of them have been assassinated we believe, four of five of them in the last 72 hours, that the jig could be up for him there and that it's better to stay out than to go in.I think Fallujah is a different case all together. They have a very large group of insurgents in Fallujah, according to American military estimates, perhaps as many as 2,000, among them probably 200 or so hardcore al Qaeda-linked fighters. This is a city only 30 miles from Baghdad astride one of the principal highways connecting Baghdad in this case to Jordan.I think they've always known they would have to do something about it but there seems to have been a decision prior to last night's eruption of violence to try and deal with that too in a peaceful way. That's always seemed very improbable to me. Last night's events seem to make it even more improbable and there looks like a rocky road for the American military to travel in Fallujah before that situation can be resolved, if it can be resolved.
BROWN: I know you have a lot of work ahead of you today. We appreciate the time you're able to give us always. Thank you. Stay safe. John Burns of the "New York Times" with us tonight.One more item here before we go to break. Hard to know precisely what to make of this, especially the whys. There were explosions and a gun battle in the streets of the Syrian capital today, Damascus. Witnesses heard at least six loud explosions around eight o'clock local time in the evening, a neighborhood housing a number of western and Iranian diplomats.Syrian authorities say a group of terrorists set off a bomb, then shot at and tossed grenades at police, the battle lasting about an hour. Four people died, two militants, one Syrian officer and a bystander. No word yet on who was behind the mayhem today in Damascus.Ahead on the program tonight, top secret business or business as usual, the vice president's case goes to the U.S. Supreme Court.Also coming up the primary race in Pennsylvania down to the wire. We'll check on that too.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Sometime this summer the U.S. Supreme Court will decide whether the White House has the constitutional right to keep the details of the vice president's energy task force secret. We know that many oil industry executives met with the vice president, including Enron's Ken Lay but we know far less about what role they or other interest groups had in the actual formation of policy.At the heart of the case are two differing views of the presidency itself and the White House belief that over two generations the presidency has been dangerously weakened.Here's our Senior White House Correspondent John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): On the campaign trail, a very public role leading the attack against Democrat John Kerry.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is irresponsible to vote against vital support for the United States military.
KING: But this a vice president whose most important work is done in private in the Oval Office here and who is the leader of an aggressive effort to defend a president's right to conduct some business in secret.
ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, you know, we don't operate in government on a baseline that everything is open to the public.
KING: At issue now, the Supreme Court case about whether some records of the vice president's energy task force should be made public. A lower court said yes and the White House appealed.Democrats in Congress and other critics call it proof of a White House obsessed with secrecy on issues ranging from the energy task force to blocking access to information about terror suspects detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
CHERYL MILLS, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COUNSEL: This administration is much more conservative on the issue or privilege and much more I'd say aggressive about asserting it or asserting those things that are similar to it.
KING: Not so says the president's top lawyer.
GONZALES: In most cases we are able to reach an accommodate and that's why in the history of this administration only once has this president asserted executive privilege.
KING: Just recently, these compromises. The 9/11 Commission finally won access to a presidential intelligence briefing Mr. Bush received five weeks before the terrorist attacks and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testified before the commission after months in which the White House said no.
NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST.: Every president, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, oftentimes faced with immediate political pressures has kind of caved or given in on executive responsibilities.
KING: That the White House did not give in this time and appealed the energy task force case to the Supreme Court reflects Mr. Cheney's unrivaled clout within the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And it reflects this vice president's passionate view that over the past 30 years, presidential privilege and presidential power has eroded dangerously, in his view, Aaron, beginning in Watergate, the vice president believes, and including a decision made by the first president he worked for Gerald Ford to give into pressure and to testify to Congress about his controversial decision to pardon Richard Nixon -- Aaron.
BROWN: Tests and the limits of presidential power and authority go back to the Supreme Court tomorrow in the Padilla -- I think it's tomorrow, I know it's this week, the Padilla and Hamdi cases that may be the most controversial of all.
KING: Certainly more significant if you are looking at the continued prosecution of the war on terrorism. This administration making the case that it has the right in some cases to deny attorneys to those being held, as suspects at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere and that it has the right to deny information, the administration drawing a very hard line on these key issues. And, you are right, those arguments tomorrow in the Padilla case.
BROWN: Even when they are American citizens in the cases of Padilla and Hamdi.
KING: If the administration believes it can meet the test that they are a terrorist threat operating within this country it believes it has extraordinary rights. Again, that is one of the few questions and on this question in the lower courts and even at the Supreme Court there's been a great deal of skepticism. Tomorrow's arguments will be quite interesting.
BROWN: I think they're going to be fascinating. John, thank you, John King our White House Correspondent tonight.A few other items that made news around the country today. Senator John Kerry has accepted an invitation to give a speech at Westminster College in Missouri. You may remember that yesterday the vice president lit into him at that university. Shortly thereafter the college president invited Mr. Kerry saying he was distressed that the vice president used the speech at his college for attacks.The wreckage of a missing Army helicopter was found tonight in a patch of woods near Interstate 97 in South Carolina, no sign of survivors at the scene. The three crewmen now presumed to have perished.And police in Phoenix, Arizona are looking for a gunman who shot and killed two people at a trucking company there this morning. They do have a suspect, a man named Howard Fisk (ph) who they say knew the victims and had threatened them recently.Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, shaky cease-fires in the north, militant uprisings in the south, why the whole of Iraq seems to be caught up in a most uncivil war, a break first.Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It will be a year ago this weekend that the president declared major combat over in Iraq. What has become painfully clear is that the relatively easy victory on the road to Baghdad a year ago told but a part of the story. One statistic tells a lot: 150 Americans died in the march to Baghdad a year ago; 150 Americans have died so far this month in Iraq. For those that know the region, Fallujah and Najaf are always potential land mines. Ken Pollack joins us from Washington. He is the director of the Saban Center of Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution and an analyst for us. Here in New York, Bernard Haykel. He teaches Middle Eastern and Islamic studies at New York University. And we're glad to have you both here. Professor, let me start with you. Is it the -- Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon reported earlier that there was this hope that maybe the insurgents in Fallujah would kind of buy into the program, that they have a future in the country. They'll get their sewers fixed, the water running, the schools rebuilt, the hospitals going and everything will be OK for them and there will be a peaceful way out of this. Is there, do you think? Is that realistic?
BERNARD HAYKEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: No, I think that one has to look at the reasons why they really are so adamantly against the U.S. occupation. If you look at the people there, most of them are officers at the two bases that were in the area. They worked in the army. They were high officers in the army of Saddam Hussein. And they're out of a job. They've been out of a job and they have no prospects of coming back in. And one of the mistakes we made was to disband the army. BROWN: Well, but we tried to correct that last week.
HAYKEL: But, clearly, they haven't been given sufficient guarantees. And more importantly they represent the Sunni Arab population, who feel that they're the losers in all of this.
BROWN: Well, they are the losers in all of this.
HAYKEL: And they will be spoilers as long as we don't give them some guarantee of a role in the future of Iraq.
BROWN: Ken, let's just stay in Fallujah before we move south. Is there in your mind, other than rewriting history, which neither of us can do, none of us can do, is there a peaceful way out of this or is it going to end ugly this week, next week, a month from now, some point?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Aaron, I've got to be honest with you. I'm really distressed by what I'm seeing in Fallujah. As you point out, I think the best answer was never to have started down this course. You'll remember when you and I spoke the night that those four contractors were mutilated in Fallujah, a point that I tried to make was, we shouldn't concentrate on revenge; we should concentrate on preventing future incidents like this, because trying to deal with the situation in Fallujah through violence was not going to work.And unfortunately that's the path we have started down. And I think we have got ourselves into a real catch-22. If we go into Fallujah, even though it is the Marines and they're very good at this and they will proceed as best they can, it is still a very high likelihood that we're going to have a lot of bloodshed, a lot of stuff for Al-Jazeera to put on the air.On the other hand, if we don't go into Fallujah, we're going to be handing a huge psychological victory to the resistance in Fallujah, who -- I absolutely agree with Dr. Haykel -- they feel completely alienated from the process of reconstruction.
BROWN: Just going back to the beginning, again, we can't change this, but if you're at the CPA or you're at -- in the American military, and you see this incredible scene of lawlessness that played out, where the four contractors died, their bodies mutilated, hung from bridges, the whole nine yards, you've got to do something. Don't you lose face in the country by doing nothing also?
POLLACK: Certainly, doing nothing is difficult to do. But I think that you need to recognize that there is a difference between steps that can help you down the road and steps that can make the situation worse. And I think that concentrating on Fallujah would have been a smart thing. But simply mounting a major military operation was always going to get you into this catch-22. And I think that the smarter approach would have been to recognize we do have a problem in Fallujah. It is probably a problem we should have dealt with 12 months ago. But now at this point in time, we have got to take a combined political and military approach, again, as Dr. Haykel was kind of suggesting in his remarks. BROWN: Let me go back to that, Professor. Who needs to do that? That's clearly not the job of the Marine commander on the ground.
HAYKEL: No.
BROWN: Is that the CPA's job? Does the CPA in fact have the resources? Is this the Iraqi Governing Council that has to do that? Because I'm not sure that they have the courage to do that or the support within the country to do that.
HAYKEL: Well, I think that we have to come at it, you know, with a number -- a combined approach that has to include the regional actors. For instance, Saudi Arabia has been left out of the picture completely, Iran more or less completely. We have a problem with Iran and Syria, because a lot of fighters are coming in across the borders. And more importantly, Fallujah is being used now as a symbol, like Kana was in South Lebanon, as this great sort of point of Islamic resistance to an infidel army. As a public relations campaign, this is a complete victory for al Qaeda. We have Marines in mosques walking around with their shoes and boots and rifles. This will play in the Arab and Muslim street like nothing since, you know, since the invasion of Iraq to begin with.
BROWN: Ken, let me give you the last word. This has obviously been -- even -- nobody would describe this month as anything but awful over there from every perspective imaginable. Is there -- do you to see in anything that has gone on any light? Should we be encouraged, for example, that Najaf has not exploded?
POLLACK: I will say that I think that there were some positive signs, in particular the fact that the majority of the Shiite leaders, Ayatollah Sistani, the other members of the
(CROSSTALK)
POLLACK: ... very specifically said to their followers, don't join Muqtada al-Sadr, don't join the uprising. His path is not the best path for us. That's very important to remember. And it is something that we have to capitalize on moving forward.
BROWN: So at least, in what has been a very difficult month and will end as a very difficult month, the worst since the war, there are small signs in important places that it is not all bad, I guess, huh?
POLLACK: I think that's right. And it gives me hope that there is still enough of a reservoir of public support for the reconstruction and of hope on the part of Iraq's mainstream leadership that we can build -- rebuild a partnership and move forward. But we absolutely have to take this as a warning sign that if we continue down the same course that we have been following, we're going to continue to alienate Iraqis and these kind of outbreaks in the future are just going to be worse and worse.
BROWN: Ken, good to see you. Professor, good to have you. Hope you'll come back.
HAYKEL: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Maybe May will be better. We can all hope. Thank you.
HAYKEL: Thank you.
BROWN: Still to come tonight, a bit of domestic politics, a tight race in Pennsylvania, where an important primary may just be a sign of things to come in the battle for the U.S. Senate. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
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BROWN: Last night, we previewed the Senate Republican primary race in Pennsylvania, one of the most closely watched primary races in the country all year. Senator Arlen Specter, the senior senator in the state, is fighting one of the toughest fights of his political career. And it is coming within his own party, the race widely thought to be a test of the Republican Party's tolerance for moderates within its own ranks. CNN's Joe Johns joins us tonight from Philadelphia. Joe, Good evening.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. An old-fashioned brawl here in Pennsylvania. Senator Arlen Specter with 55 percent of the vote in was leading 52-48. We didn't really know what that means. It was expected to be a long evening. Both sides thought they were going to be counting votes late into the night. Senator Specter after the polls closed came out and talked to some of his supporters.
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SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: It has been a very, very difficult campaign, as I know all of you sense. When we have had the kind of an invasion on a number of lines from most importantly the Wall Street financiers who have pumped millions of dollars into the campaign and when we have candidate been to all the church parking lots on Sunday and found so much adverse literature focusing solely on the abortion issue, we have had our hands full.
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JOHNS: Now the challenger, of course, is Congressman Pat Toomey. He has spent a lot of his time around Allentown. That of course is his stronghold. He needs big support from the central part of the state, people who are against abortion, against more taxes, and, frankly against Arlen Specter, who many of them believe is simply too liberal. This race has had a lot of impact. It has had a lot of national focus because, of course, it is a swing state, also because the president of the United States has put himself on the line campaigning for the incumbent, Arlen Specter. It is not necessarily because Republicans think Specter is such a fine candidate and they agree with everything he says. They say it is because they're concerned that Pat Toomey might not be able to pull it out in November because, as one person here said, a lot of people stayed on the couches today, but they won't stay on the couches in November, not strong turnout tonight -- Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: The state is a bit hard to read in some respects. The other senator, Rick Santorum, is quite conservative in the state. So it is not clear that Congressman Toomey would get -- would lose in the fall. It's not clear to me at least.
JOHNS: No, you're absolutely right. And that's one of the points you to reemphasize here. Senator Santorum has gotten a lot of support. He's very popular here. And he's done quite well. So it is not a foregone conclusion that Pat Toomey will lose. However, a lot of people are expected to come out. And the question, as you know, is swing voters and what will those swing voters do if Pat Toomey is on the ticket. That is probably the bottom line for a lot of folks tonight, Aaron.
BROWN: Joe, thank you very much -- Joe Johns in Philadelphia reporting for us tonight. Ahead on the program, Fallujah once again. We'll show it to you as it played out overnight in Iraq. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: Back to the beginning in Fallujah. No words here, just the sounds of the fight overnight. No experts to kick it around, just the scene as it unfolded. As it plays out, a chance to consider how difficult a month it has been for the U.S. side, which has lost 115 soldiers and Marines, and from the Iraqi side, which has taken some -- we don't really know how many -- civilian deaths as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we're seeing now about 800 (INAUDIBLE) or one kilometer south of the Marine position is a bombardment by an AC-130 Spectre gunship. The AC-130 is still overhead. Again, we can see more explosions there. What we can see from here looks like the two positions have been hit. those two positions, possibly 100, 150 yards apart. As I say, no confirmation at this stage from U.S. Marine commanders what those positions may have been. But certainly, the indication that those were insurgent positions. In the distance there, what we've just seen is a fairly large secondary explosion and a small mushroom cloud rising there. Again, this could be another indication that this was some kind of weapons store or an ammunitions store. Certainly that explosion, we don't believe at this stage, was caused by any more coalition strikes on that area. ]We can see now going across in the sky, if you managed to see that, the flash tracer fire. Those tracers are going out from a coalition position, a U.S. Marine position a little ways from where we are standing. It's the same Marine company, Echo Company that we're with. That's the position; they've been sending out the tracer fire there. You probably won't be able to pick these sounds up from our camera microphone, but all the time that these attacks have been going on in the distance, we can hear chants and songs from one of the many mosques in Fallujah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the country, because I don't really see any ones that are outside the country today. Kind of an interesting mix between -- no, let me do that differently -- a really interesting mix between local stories and national and international stories on the front pages of the paper.
"The Washington Times," the conservative paper in the Washington, D.C., area, editorially, at least, on the editorial pages, and sometimes I think on the front page, too, but not necessarily today. "Still Bullish." I have no idea -- you can't see that, can you? Can you go down there a little bit. I don't know why they put a bullfight on the front page, but they did. But that's not their lead. "U.S. Planes Rock Fallujah" and a very good picture on the front page as well, also, the Syrian thing, which, honestly, we don't really know much about. "Terrorists Killed in Syrian Attack."
And that's pretty much the front page of "The Washington Times." One good local story having to do with college athletic directors. I love this story because it raises, like -- it raises all sorts of questions. I started to talk like my daughter for a second, didn't I, like?
"South Florida Loses Funds For School. Budget Agreement Denies Millions in School Money For Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, Inflicting a Defeat on the Region's Legislators." In this space, two years from now, you'll see, local students not doing as well in school and people will wonder why it is and it might have something to do with that, or perhaps it will not. That's -- thank you.
That's coming up later. "Philadelphia Inquirer" leads politically. "Toomey, Specter Locked in Tight Race For Senate." We told you about that. And nobody voted. I like that. Well, obviously, some people did. "Despite National Attention, Voter Turnout Was Low." That sometimes happens. Things that we care a lot about, people back there in the home states don't. I hadn't seen this one. This one just kind of snuck up on me.
"The Oregonian" out there in Portland, Oregon, the Rose City, one of the prettiest cities in the country. "U.S. Presses Attack in Fallujah." We haven't seen this paper in a while. And I'm glad to see it. Also on the front page, they put the vice president's case before the Supreme Court on the front page. It may have been on others, but I haven't seen it. "Justices Seem to See Cheney Side of Talks. Supreme Court Appears to Lean Toward Executive Privilege in Energy Task Force Case." At least that's how "The Oregonian" and "The Washington Post" writer who wrote the story for "The Oregonian" saw it. Ah, one of my favorites,
"The Burt County Plaindealer" in Burt County, Nebraska. It is a weekly paper. And the big story there is spring. "Stores Stocking Up for Planning" -- planting, that would be, Aaron. Planting. And, also, the gun locks are here, if you're in that town. How we doing on time? Almost done. That would be time to do the weather. In that case, "For shizzle." Beats me. It's the weather in Chicago. I can tell you it is going to be terrific, 74 degrees. Very nice. We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.
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BROWN: Tomorrow, the U.S. Supreme Court hears the Padilla case, the power of the president and an American citizen -- that and much more.We'll see you at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us.
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