Should There Be More Troops in Iraq?
Aired April 7, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.The defense secretary said late today things in Iraq are not out of control. It is likely true that. It is also true the situation shows signs of getting worse before it gets better. The fighting today spreading from the south of the country as far north as Kirkuk. The Ukrainians, which had had control of the city of Kut fled the city under attack. The Bulgarians also under attack demanded, that was the word their defense minister used, the Americans send in reinforcements. There are 450 Bulgarians.The Pentagon seemed to acknowledge today for the first time that there might not be enough boots on the ground to handle the situation. Tours will likely be extended. Through it all, the casualties mount and the complications grow. Iraq, again, dominates the program and the whip.First the state of play on the ground as best we can report it. CNN's Walter Rodgers with the watch, Walter a headline.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, ultimately the firepower and numbers of troops the United States has here points again to another military victory but you have to ask can you impose a democracy in Iraq by tanks and can you make the Iraqi people like you with so much bloodshed -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.Next to the Pentagon, tough questions today for the secretary of defense, Jamie McIntyre on duty again, Jamie a headline from you.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, despite taking heavy losses over the past few days in fighting all across Iraq. The Pentagon insisted today that it's dealing with a relatively small number of what it called thugs and assassins. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld called it a test of will and said the U.S. will prevail.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you.Finally, a story we expected to lead the program for much of the week. It didn't quite turn out that way. The president's national security adviser goes before the 9/11 commission tomorrow. CNN's Jeanne Meserve previews that tonight, Jeanne the headline.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It will be the Bush administration's formal rebuttal to the testimony of former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke who told the panel the Bush administration did not heed warnings about the danger posed by al Qaeda. Expect the questions to be pointed, persistent and perhaps partisan -- Aaron.BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get to you and the rest shortly.Also on the program tonight, the politics of war in a presidential election year and the echoes of a painful past. The Vietnam comparisons are more frequent each day, fair or not.Also, an eloquent, if not quite easy, look at Rwanda at a time when that small African country was at its ugliest, the awful moments captured in the power of a still photo.And later, an anecdote we hope though the headlines might say otherwise. We'll take a look at morning papers from around the country and around the world, all that and more in the hour ahead. Not an easy hour to be sure.We begin in Iraq where tonight there are fewer coalition casualties to report but still plenty of reasons for concern and plenty of violence too. For the third straight day, U.S. Marines fought to regain control of Fallujah, long a hotbed within the Sunni Triangle, where anti-U.S. sentiment has been the strongest.The military said tonight at least 30 enemy combatants were killed there today. There are also reports of serious civilian casualties that make the coalition's work far more complicated.Elsewhere in the Sunni Triangle, coalition forces remain in control in the city of Ramadi where 12 U.S. Marines died yesterday in an attack by insurgents. At least 18 enemy combatants were killed in Ramadi today according to the military.In other parts of Iraq from Baghdad's Sadr City to Kut in the south, things are fluid to say the least and the death toll climbs. In Baghdad today, a U.S. soldier was killed in an attack on an Iraqi police station bringing the total U.S. deaths in Iraq to 637.The military was adamant today. This is not a two front war. It is one front, the country of Iraq. We'll leave the semantics to others. The facts on the ground are simple to report in some respects, very complicated to solve. The growing violence among Iraqi Shiites represents a dangerous sign. While the formal militia may represent only a few thousand men there are signs that others are picking up the cause. The more it spreads, the more dangerous it gets for the Americans, for others in the coalition and for millions of Iraqis who want no part of this expanding fight.We begin tonight again with CNN's Walter Rodgers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS (voice-over): Day three, Fallujah, the dogs of war let loose. U.S. Marines battle inspired Iraqi insurgents to regain control of a city lost after four American civilian contractors were massacred there a week ago.In the fighting, bombs fell within a mosque compound infuriating, electrifying and unifying Muslims but an American general said insurgents had turned the mosque into a fortress.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: It can be attacked when there is a military necessity brought on by the fact that the enemy is storing weapons, using weapons, inciting violence, executing violence from its grounds.
RODGERS: Around Iraq a shift, no longer just ambushes but battles for cities, an-Najaf now largely in the hands of Muqtada al- Sadr's rebels. Ukrainian coalition troops pulled out of Kut, outnumbered by insurgents and Bulgarians in Karbala called for reinforcements. In Baghdad's Sadr City, scene of bloody fighting since Sunday, U.S. armor took up positions to crush the Shiites' Mehdi Army.
KIMMITT: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi Army.
RODGERS: Iraqi hospitals filled but accurate death tolls were difficult. Baghdad mosques issued calls for food and medicine for beleaguered cities. The message for Americans was different.
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY SPOKESMAN: Life is improving for Iraqis. Things are getting better for them.
RODGERS: But, Iraqis say the bloodshed turns people against the Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Americans will not -- didn't know what -- how to deal with the Iraqis.RODGERS: This man said the situation goes from bad to worse every day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS: Privately, many Iraqis say the American promise of democracy has left them with a bitter taste. They say their country has been bleeding under the American occupation -- Aaron.
BROWN: In Baghdad proper, not in Sadr City but in the city of Baghdad proper is it demonstrably different this week than it was a week ago?
RODGERS: Very much so, Aaron. As I've stood here throughout the night I have heard 50-caliber machine guns chugging away not very far behind me. I've heard much more frequent small arms fire than I heard when I was here in November and December and you can hear the occasional loud explosions. Yes, it is much more combative. You do hear fighting and you do hear shooting in the not too distant -- not too distant over my shoulders -- Aaron.
BROWN: What kind of -- when you talk about 50-caliber machine gun fire and the like what is it that's going on there? Is this like street to street fighting that's going on? Are these attacks on the Americans? What is it that seems to be happening in Baghdad proper?
RODGERS: Well, much of the fighting you hear from the northeastern part of the city, the Shiite enclaves of Sadr City. Having said that, we have had people tell us, phone CNN here in Baghdad and say that they see Iraqi insurgents, perhaps Shiites, perhaps Sunnis, we're not sure. The guerrillas come out at night. They run through the city. They put down improvised explosives devices, roadside bombs, thinking that the U.S. forces may come down the street. This is a city which remains very much torn and it is much more dangerous and has seen much more fighting in this past week than in the past several months -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter thank you, Walter Rodgers in Baghdad.The surge in violence across Iraq comes near the end of a massive rotation of U.S. troops in the region. New fresh troops have been coming in to replace a tired group of young men and women, many who have been in Iraq since the war started. They may now be there a bit longer. As the Pentagon acknowledged, tours may be extended because of this latest spasm of violence.Here's our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Along with insurgents on the ground, the Pentagon is now fighting a battle of perceptions. After several days of heavy losses, Pentagon officials are struggling to explain why they believe the U.S. is still winning.You yourself said that it was a test of wills today.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is.
MCINTYRE (on camera): Is this a turning point, a critical junction?
RUMSFELD: I wouldn't use that phrase. I thought the way I phrased it is about right. It's a moment on the path towards a free Iraq.
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Despite widespread fighting in the last few days across Iraq, the Pentagon insists it's dealing with a relatively small number of thugs and assassins.
RUMSFELD: You have a mixture of a small number of terrorists, a small number of militias coupled with some demonstrations and some lawlessness.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I think it's also important to remember what this is not and it's certainly a popular uprising or movement supported by the majority of Iraqis. It is not that at all.
MCINTYRE: Sources say that in a video conference with his national security team, President Bush was assured by top U.S. Commander General John Abizaid that the U.S. military's plan to aggressively attack anti-American forces will work and, while Abizaid has not asked for additional troops to be sent to Iraq, sources say he is planning to delay the departure of units that had been scheduled to rotate out after one year.Sources say elements from the 1st Armored Division are being shifted to hot spots in Iraq instead of packing for home. The Pentagon says military necessity trumps its promise of limiting tours in Iraq to just one year.MYERS: I think one thing we've always said from day one before major combat began is that what the combat commander on the ground needs in terms of resources, men, women, material, he'll get.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And the Pentagon insists the transfer of sovereignty will take place as scheduled June 30th and it's promising what it calls robust military actions to ensure that that transition takes place -- Aaron.
BROWN: So, today they say understandably it is not a popular uprising. Do you detect concern in the Pentagon that it might spread to exactly that?
MCINTYRE: I think that's exactly the concern. Certainly the officials I've talked to have expressed the idea that that's the really troublesome prospect. That's why they believe they have to take very aggressive action now to essentially nip this in the bud, to isolate the people who are fighting them and to show that they're not going to hunker down and recoil from patrolling Iraq but to confront it aggressively because the potential is for it to spin out of control.
BROWN: To what extent do they worry that Newton's law applies to the military as well that there will be an equal and opposite reaction that the attacks themselves will help create a popular uprising?
MCINTYRE: Well, they are concerned about that and they realize that to the extent that you have civilian casualties, to the extent that you're seeing attacking religious sites, just to the extent that you're using brute force that can have a reaction but they feel the far, far greater danger is to allow those who are opposed to the U.S. to not be opposed and that that will embolden them and they think that's really the bigger danger.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre with us again tonight. In some respects, the battle being fought were the battles expected to be fought a year ago, the street to street, house to house fights that never really materialized when Baghdad fell. Iraq never an easy place to report from is clearly more dangerous all the time.Colin McMahon is there for the "Chicago Tribune" and we're pleased to have him with us tonight. It's good to see you. Just let's pick up on this concern about popular uprising. Do you detect the Shiite side of this equation to be growing?
COLIN MCMAHON, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE" FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's what's happening is that a lot of regular Shiites, while they may not embrace Muqtada al-Sadr's political views or his policy of kind of confrontation, you know, there is some kind of respect for what these fighters have been able to do and the damage that they've inflicted on this great occupation force.
BROWN: What does that tell you about their views towards this great occupation force then?
MCMAHON: Well, I think it's clear that no one -- everybody wants the occupation to end. I mean the vast majority of Iraqis want the occupation to end. They also want security and they understand that right now the occupation forces are the best bet for that but there is a lot of sympathy for the view that the Americans need to get out of Iraq as soon as possible.
BROWN: Do they believe that what is going on now, people you talk to believe that what is going on now will hasten the day the Americans leave or will delay the day the Americans leave?
MCMAHON: Yes. I think, you know, that's a little bit more sophisticated argument and discussion than is going on right now in the past few days. In the past few days it's been much more visceral and people have kind of looked on it and while they think about it they kind of play it all out and say, okay, where might this lead?They get to that point. Then they say, wait a minute, we got to slow this down. But in the initial days it was like wow look at those guys. They took on those tanks. They took on those soldiers and they bloodied them pretty badly.
BROWN: So just to button this up, there is a sense that this is, among lots of Shiites at least, that this is -- what has gone on for the last few days is walking the country down a dangerous path.
MCMAHON: Yes. I mean certainly in the leadership that's the view. In a lot of kind of moderate Shiite areas that is definitely the view. They do not -- they understand that this could explode and I think the American military understands it could explode. They're watching. They're watching for a couple of things. They're watching for links between these Shiite militias who belong to Muqtada al-Sadr, between them and the Sunni, you know, the Fedayeen guys and they're looking for any kind of growth in popular support and right now they think they have it both under control but they say they're vigilant.
BROWN: Have we heard much from the Iraqi provisional government?
MCMAHON: Well there's been some comments. I mean the initial call was for calm but some of the leading Shiite politicians have criticized the Americans as well and said that they've kind of towed the line here and said, look, what's happening now with Sadr's militia cannot continue and these men have to stop these attacks.At the same time, they've been criticizing the Americans for attacks on civilians, for heavy handed measures and it's like they're not quite ready to condemn all of this stuff that's coming up from the grassroots.
BROWN: What are you looking for right now as a sign of where this all goes?
MCMAHON: I think, you know, we got a big Shiite and Muslim holiday coming up this week in (unintelligible). This, I think so much depends on the next few days and how the Americans are going to respond and what's going to happen in Najaf and Karbala when all these pilgrims gather.And if there's violence and it gets to be widespread, depending on the occupation forces' reaction, it could go very, very badly. I just think at this point it's really difficult for anybody to suggest they know what's going to happen.BROWN: Fair enough. Colin, thank you. Nice job tonight. Thanks for joining us. We look forward to talking to you again.It has been a week of intense fighting and intense coverage where Iraq is concerned. It seemed to us like a good day to step back and look at how the story is being reported in the Arab world.This is not some idle exercise. What they see in the Middle East, how they react to it has the potential to make the problems for the United States' side much more difficult. No snapshot of a single day's coverage is ever perfect but with that in mind we took a look today at what the Arab networks were showing their viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Beamed into millions of Arab homes, these are the images people across the Middle East and beyond are watching about the last few days of violence in Iraq.According to the reports, civilians are killed and badly hurt by today's fighting in Fallujah. Says the man described as the director of the hospital in that city, they, the Americans, are not letting us save the lives of our wounded.
AHMED AL-SHEIKH, CHIEF EDITOR, AL-JAZEERA: We concentrate on the suffering of the Iraqi people. That's what misses from our point of view. The people in Fallujah are suffering. The people in Ramadi are suffering. The people of southern Iraq are suffering. That's what is most important for us. We want to show this to our audience.
BROWN: And they certainly do. So does another Arab television channel Al Aribiya, smaller, seen primarily in Saudi Arabia its home base."What has America given us," asked this woman in Fallujah? "It gave us destruction and killing of our youth and destruction of our houses and the burning of our cars."
AL-SHEIKH: American soldiers whenever they are attacked they start shooting indiscriminately and this is unacceptable from my point of view. How can we interpret that in any other way?
BROWN: There were no interviews that we saw of any American military officials to give the reasons for the fighting. Both did interview different members of the Iraqi Governing Council and both were critical of the American offensive.While we make no claim to having viewed every second of Arab television over the last several days, it is clear what their overriding image is, civilian anger at the Americans, civilian suffering caused by the Americans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A look at their news today.Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the political battles on the home front where the rhetoric is certainly heating up, along with the violence overseas. And later in the program, a look at what to expect tomorrow when National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testifies before the 9/11 commission.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We could make a case, we suppose, that a presidential campaign is no time to be grappling with Iraq in the air waves and on the Senate floor. You can also argue precisely the opposite that the question of the president's stewardship of American power and the expenditure of American lives ought to be faced squarely and openly in the political arena. In any case, the question is no longer theoretical if it ever was to begin with. From Capitol Hill tonight here's CNN's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the escalating violence, John Kerry in a radio interview compared the president's handling of Iraq to Vietnam.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Since I fought in Vietnam I have not seen an arrogance in our foreign policy like this.JOHNS: But Republican John McCain, also a Vietnam veteran and a Kerry friend said making such comparisons is flat wrong.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.
JOHNS: John Kerry's closest ally in Congress, Ted Kennedy, first called Iraq Bush's Vietnam on Monday and Wednesday the Senate's leading critic of the war, Robert Byrd, kept up the drumbeat. Byrd reciting Tennyson's poem about the doomed charge of the light brigade.
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: There's but to do and die into the valley of death rode the 600.JOHNS: Then invoking the "V" word.
BYRD: Surely, I am not the only one who hears echoes of Vietnam in this development.JOHNS: Republicans are furious. Senator Saxby Chambliss saying American lives could be endangered by the statements of politicians.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: Statements that tend to incite the opposition and to put our men and women in greater harm's way.JOHNS: Democratic Leader Tom Daschle accused Republicans of trying to stifle debate.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE, MINORITY LEADER: I think in an open democracy people ought to have a right to express themselves without fear of character assassination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in a time of war?
DASCHLE: Absolutely, especially in a time of war.
JOHNS (on camera): Daschle and many Democrats say more troops may be needed because of the worsening situation in Iraq, a view that may be picking up support among some moderate Republicans. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says the Congress will give the Pentagon whatever it says it needs.Joe Johns, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Joe Biden, the Democratic Senator from Delaware is neither a screamer nor a zealot nor a hack, at least not in our view. He is an influential member of the Senate on matters of foreign policy and a powerful voice, whether in the majority or not. As such, his views are not easily overlooked and regardless of where you stand on the war, he raises we think serious and challenging questions. We spoke with Senator Biden earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator, give me your quick take on your view of what's happening in Iraq and we'll go from there.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: A power struggle has ensued in the vacuum of not announcing what our policy is going to be in terms of June 30 when we hand over power and I think you're beginning to see that struggle and we're just caught in the crossfire.
BROWN: This is a struggle between whom then?
BIDEN: This is a struggle for the heart and soul of the Shia majority in the case of what's going on in the Shia territory and I think what you're seeing happening in Fallujah is a continuation of the struggle with the Sunnis. But the problem is now they're coalescing and the problem is further that we don't have a plan. There is no clear enunciation of to whom we're going to be turning over power and who is going to take the place of Bremer to negotiate those differences that are going to persist from the time we leave until a general election is held at the end of the year and a constitution is written.
BROWN: The U.N. is trying to do some negotiating. Does the U.N. have the authority right now to do what you think needs to be done?
BIDEN: What I think needs to be done is we have to invest the world in this and make this the political dynamic of the remainder of what needs to be done in Iraq should be essentially turned over to the Security Council so we take, as the president said, an American face off of the occupation.And we need to legitimize this incoming government and we need to legitimize the electoral process as well as the constitution that's going to be written and we're not going to do that by just transferring power from Mr. Bremer to a super ambassador presiding over an American embassy of 3,000 people. It's going to be a prescription, I believe, for disaster.
BROWN: Isn't it a little late in the game to be trying to take the American face off the occupation?
BIDEN: No. Well, by the way, it should have occurred six months ago, eight months ago, a year ago but with presidential leadership it could be done right now. I'm confident we could through presidential leadership agree with out NATO allies and the permanent members of the Security Council on a high commissioner taking the place of Mr. Bremer on July the 1st.And, in return, get a commitment from our NATO allies to make this a NATO operation and gradually increase the amount of NATO forces to do three things, one, train the Iraqi military; two, secure the border; and three, free up all our troops in northern Iraq.
BROWN: When you look at what's happening on the ground right now do you think of this as a spasm of violence or something bigger and therefore more dangerous?
BIDEN: If we don't come forward with a presidential plan I think it's something bigger and more dangerous. If we give General Abizaid the additional troops he needs now to quell the violence coupled with the world community signing on with us as to the future of Iraq, then I think it could be a spasm.We are at a very fateful moment, Aaron. I think that people are going to look back ten years from now at three dates, 9/11, 3/11 with regard to Madrid, and 6/30. That is when we turn over power to this yet to be identified Iraqi contingency and it has to have legitimacy and the only way it can do that is with the United Nations, the Security Council in particular putting its stamp on it.
BROWN: Just finally do you see any sign the administration is ready to do that?
BIDEN: I see a sign the struggle is still going on within the administration. It appears to be between the State Department and the uniformed military on one side of the equation and Mr. -- I don't know this for a fact but Vice President Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld on the other. I think their exit strategy is Chalabi in charge of Iraq. I don't think that's a sustainable strategy.BROWN: Senator, it's always good to have you with us. Hope we'll talk soon again.
BIDEN: Thank you very much, Aaron, I appreciate it.BROWN: Thank you, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)BROWN: Senator Joe Biden, we talked with him earlier today.Coming up on the program next, tomorrow National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice at long last in public under oath before the 9/11 commission.Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tomorrow, with war raging in Iraq and troops on the move in Afghanistan, the date that led to both takes center stage. After weeks of delay on the part of the White House and high political drama all around, the president's national security adviser will raise her right hand and then answer questions in public and under oath about 9/11. A preview tonight from CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 9/11 Commission has heard testimony from over 1,000 people. But some members say none of it was as important as what they will hear from Condoleezza Rice.
TIMOTHY ROEMER, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR NATIONAL POLICY: Dr. Rice is right in the hub, right in the middle, right in the nexus of all these decisions in the Bush administration. MESERVE: Among the questions commission members want her to answer, how high a priority was the threat from al Qaeda? How did the administration respond to intelligence in the summer of 2001 that an attack might be imminent? Why did it take the Bush administration seven months to develop a counterterrorism plan? Commission members spent Wednesday honing their questions.
JAMES THOMPSON, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I've got a briefcase full of news articles. I've got briefing book given to us by the staff. I'm going to be in our headquarters tonight and look at the classified briefing book that we can only read there in the secure facility.
MESERVE: Some members are paying particular attention to Rice's private testimony and information received since, including summaries of President Bush's daily intelligence briefings and, of course, the testimony of former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke.
THOMPSON: We have your book. And we have your press briefing of August 2002. Which is true?
MESERVE: The panel's quizzing of Clarke was characterized as sometimes hostile and political. Rice may see more of the same.
SLADE GORTON, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I don't mind harsh questions at all. I don't even particularly mind partisan questions, though I'm primarily interested in the answers.
MESERVE: But will time for questioning be gobbled up by Rice's 20-minute opening statement? THOMPSON: She's not going to leap out of the chair at 11:30 and say, I told you 2 1/2 hours. That's it. Goodbye. I think everybody will be satisfied.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Each commission member will be given roughly 10 minutes to question Rice, though the chairman can give them more time or cut them short, depending on how productive he perceives their line of questioning to be -- Aaron.
BROWN: 9:00 Eastern time tomorrow morning, right?
MESERVE: You got it.
BROWN: 9:00 Eastern time. I do have it. Thank you, Jeanne -- Jeanne Meserve. Before we go break, a few other stories that made news today, beginning with an update on an item from last night. Voters in the Los Angeles suburb of Inglewood have said no loudly to Wal-Mart. By a wide margin, they defeated a Wal-Mart-friendly ballot measure that would have allowed the company to build a so-called supercenter in the area without going through the normal environmental processes. A portion of Atlanta Airport was cordoned off earlier today after a makeshift bomb was found in a bathroom. Authorities say it was similar to a military flair. It contained a flammable chemical that could have caused considerable injury to anyone handling it. Fortunately, it did not. Still to come tonight, they've been called simply thugs, gangs and terrorists. We'll try to get a more detailed picture of the opponents of American soldiers these days in Iraq. We'll take a break first. From CNN, this is NEWSNIGHT
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And there will be more coming in the days ahead, you can be sure of that. Earlier tonight, just in the last segment or so, Senator Joe Biden echoed a theme of the last few days, the notion that Iraq is fast approaching a sort of tipping point. We're now joined by Robert Orr. Mr. Orr served on both the National Security Council in the Clinton administration and last summer was part of the Pentagon's survey team in Iraq. And we're pleased to have him with us tonight. Mr. Orr, let's start, I guess, sort of simply here. When we look at the spreading of the violence to the Shia community, how ought we see that?
ROBERT ORR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: This is absolutely central. We have been focused for a while now on the so-called Sunni Triangle and the relatively small number of insurgents there. The fact is, though, the future of Iraq will be determined by what happens with the center of gravity in Iraq, which is the Shia community.
BROWN: Obviously, the -- the administration -- what the administration has been saying -- and I don't know that this is untrue -- I'm not suggesting it isn't -- that what you have are a small number of radical Shias who are causing a whole lot of problems. Clearly, there are a whole lot of problems. Do you degree with the notion that this is a relatively small and therefore manageable number of people?
ORR: The relatively small number, no, I have no agreement. But the major issue is how many people can that small number attract in how short a time. It is that old hearts and minds question. And, on that, I saw a lot more than 3,000 armed people just in the footage that I've seen in the last 24 hours in the streets of Iraq. So if the number is 3,000 in the Mahdi Army, we need to be thinking about how many are showing sympathies and willing to go out. That's the real question.
BROWN: Somebody said earlier on the program tonight -- I thought it was interesting -- that on the one hand moderate Shias seem to be saying, this is dangerous, we need to be careful here, we may be walking down a dangerous road, and on the other hand looking with some pride at what the militia was able to do.
ORR: We have made a number of mistaken assumptions in our short time in Iraq.One that is being challenged right now is the assumption that the so-called moderates and the radicals have nothing in common. In fact, they have proven that they do have some things in common. They're all frustrated and humiliated by having an occupying force there. And in the last 48 hours, we have heard a lot more complimentary rhetoric between Muqtada al-Sadr, the so-called radical cleric, and Ayatollah Sistani. The fact that they are mutually complimenting each other and not squaring off with each other is going 180 degrees against some of the assumptions we have been making up until now.
BROWN: Just a few practical questions, I guess. In your view, are there enough Americans or coalition troops on the ground to manage this moment and I guess the next three months going towards the handover?
ORR: I think the administration has kept an artificial set number of troops in Iraq. We need to go based on the professional judgment of the Pentagon.If they say we need more troops, we need to put in more troops. Right now I think today Secretary Rumsfeld finally started to cede a little ground here and acknowledge that it is possible that the scheduled rotation to bring 20,000 to 30,000 Americans out of Iraq is not likely to happen. So that's essentially an increment of that 20,000 to 30,000. We may need more. If that's what the Pentagon says, that's what we need to do.
BROWN: On the other side, is it clear to you at all that the insurgents are weaker today than they were a year ago or the insurgency is less of a concern that it was after Baghdad fell?
ORR: Oh, it certainly not less of a concern. Right after Baghdad fell, there was looting, there was pandemonium throughout Baghdad and many cities. So it is not as bad as that, because there is now some order, generalized order around the country. But as far as the insurgency goes, I'm not seeing any evidence that tells me that we are -- quote -- "winning" this war against insurgents. Quite the contrary. As we lock some folks up, kill others, there seem to be others taking their place. There is no fixed number of insurgents out there. It can go up. It can go down. And the key there is having a political strategy to defeat them, not just a military strategy.
BROWN: And tell me about that. How do you to that, when what is happening on the ground is that people are taking shots at you wherever you go?
ORR: The political strategy has to be the umbrella under which all of our military actions take place. We need to know what the shape of this future Iraqi government is going to look like. The administration is sticking to this artificial deadline of June 30, saying, come hell or high water, power will be turned over. It really matters who we turn it over to. There are an amazing numbers of very capable people in Iraq, Kurd, Shia, Sunni. We need to identify those people, put them together now, and be ready to turn something over to them. The problem is, we aren't identifying those people.And to the extent that we have, they are now afraid to stand at our side because of challenges from people like Sadr.
BROWN: When you say we aren't identifying these people, do you really believe that the CPA does not know who it would at least like to turn power over to?
ORR: We have had a big weakness with the CPA from the beginning. We didn't get enough civilians in there early enough. We didn't get the ones with the right skill sets. We don't have enough people out in the community pulsing them about who the right Iraqis are. If we had those people in place, I would be much more confident that the signals we're getting from the Iraqi people could be translated into identifying those leaders. Sure, we know who a few key leaders are, but we need more than 20 or 25 people identified. We need 1,000, 2,000 key leaders identified.
BROWN: Mr. Orr, thank you a lot. Good to talk to you.
ORR: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Ahead on the program, a photographer looks into the face of evil in Rwanda and sees a glimmer of hope. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
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BROWN: In our ongoing love affair with the still photograph, we never lose sight of how little there is to love in many of the photographs we show. Our regard instead is often for something else, for the act, we think, in making the photograph, of bearing witness even to the unspeakable, especially then. As a photographer for "Magnum," Gilles Peress traveled to Rwanda at a moment when the unspeakable was everywhere. With much of the world looking the other way, he bore witness eloquently. A decade later, he's now a staff photographer for "The New Yorker" magazine. His collection of photos from the Rwandan genocide haunt him and us long after the fact. The book is called "The Silence." The images are not easy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GILLES PERESS, PHOTOGRAPHER: What I like about photography is that is answers questions I never thought I could ask. I've always been very focused on what happens when two populations who look alike, live alike, you know, suddenly get into this tangle and this conflict. At a distance, it looked fairly spontaneous. It looked like two ethnic groups. And it looked like the more numerous one, which was the Hutu, was in the process of aggressing the other one, supposedly out of fear of the advance of the RPF from the north. Once I arrived, I realized that all this was completely organized and planned and methodical. The RPF asked to go to some other big massacre site, Nyarubuye; 1,000 people were killed there. It was discovered by the RPF as they were advancing, retaking control of Rwanda. The extent of it was phenomenal. This is -- this is a child. This is a classroom. This is in the church. This is in the courtyard. Everything was dead. There was -- there were no birds singing. There was nothing. It was all silence. Everybody was dead. Every refugee camps inside Rwanda during the genocide -- I also visited refugee camps in Tanzania and Goma. Besides the squalor of the camps, because this happened very quickly and you're talking about massive population displacements, in the millions, camps that go as far as the eye can see, besides the impact of disease, like the cholera epidemic in Goma, what was most disturbing was to meet in those camps men who clearly had killed. There is something about the eyes that you cannot miss. When I photograph, even when I put books together, I do not do it with a purpose of explaining something or impacting somebody's perception, soul or emotions. It is a process for me to try to understand what reality is made of. There cannot be progress without awareness, which is that change comes from awareness and understanding. I'm here more as a citizen who wants to remember these people, these deaths. It is so important to remember that it happened and what is our responsibility in it as citizens, as individuals. Even in our case beyond our function as a journalist, I think there is a moment where you have to go to a different level of awareness. That's the only reason why I'm here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Rwanda 10 years ago. Morning papers next.
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(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we'll begin around the world. The -- not actually anything. What is interesting to me is how newspapers are headlining Iraq and what it tells us, if anything, about the paper. We'll just sort of see how this plays out. "The International Herald Tribune" -- this is the around-the- world part -- published by "The New York Times." It is a pretty -- by my accounting, my thinking, a pretty straight lead here. "Fighting is Fierce in Iraq as Clashes Spread." And then just to kind of nod to "The International Herald Tribune," the international part, "Ukrainian Troops Cede Kut to Sadr Supporters." Down here, out of the Pentagon, "U.S. to Send Thousands More Troops Into Iraq."
This is the delayed rotation we told you about. But that's a very straightforward headline. "Christian Science Monitor," good to have them with us two nights in a row now. Looks like a habit is forming. "War Zones Erupt Again in Iraq With Growing Conflict and More Casualties. Postwar Battle Has Mushroomed into Something Far Different Than Expected." Kind of an interesting headline there. "Shiites Taxing Thin U.S. Forces" also on the front page. And down at the bottom of the front page, I'm not sure what this story is about. I haven't had a chance to read it. "Congress, Too, Missed the 9/11 Threat. Many Warnings." So that's "The Christian Science Monitor." For those of you who don't get it, you may want to pick that up.
Now "The Washington Times," a more conservative paper. And this is what I would call a half-full headline. That is to say, the cup was half-full. "Marines Secure Part of Fallujah." That is no doubt true. "Troop Rotation Will Be Delayed, Rumsfeld Says, "Democrats Split on Iraq After Rise in Violence" are the major front-page stories in "The Washington Times." But that's an interesting way to headline it. It's not an inappropriate headline, by my thinking. It's just interesting. "Marines Secure Part of Fallujah." It's certainly part of the story. How we doing? Thirty. Oh, my goodness.
Let me get to the Detroit paper, then, quickly. "Detroit News" leads with hockey, because it is hockey town. But this is the best story or the worst, depending on your point of view in Detroit these days. "Death Stalks Detroit Children. Child Mortality Rate Ranks Highest of the Large Cities, 68 Percent Above the National Average." And to make matters worse, the city is in the midst of a terrible homicide spasm. Detroit slayings are up over 50 percent from last year. Anyway, we're going to send a crew there to take a look at Detroit, which seems to be doing some pretty serious soul-searching.
By the way, the weather tomorrow in Chicago is...
(CHIMES)
BROWN: Thank you."Lackluster."We'll update the day's top stories after the break.
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BROWN: Quickly recapping our top story tonight, coalition forces bracing for another rough day in Iraq today. Marines battled insurgents again in Fallujah, killing at least 30 Iraqis, according to the military. No word yet on Marine casualties, if any, fighting as well with Shiites in the south. In spite of it all, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld says the situation is not spinning out of control, though he did say troops already in Iraq may be kept in country longer, if needed. Read that, more troops on the ground.Tomorrow on the program, extensive coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 Commission and what it all means. And we will see you then.
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Aired April 7, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.The defense secretary said late today things in Iraq are not out of control. It is likely true that. It is also true the situation shows signs of getting worse before it gets better. The fighting today spreading from the south of the country as far north as Kirkuk. The Ukrainians, which had had control of the city of Kut fled the city under attack. The Bulgarians also under attack demanded, that was the word their defense minister used, the Americans send in reinforcements. There are 450 Bulgarians.The Pentagon seemed to acknowledge today for the first time that there might not be enough boots on the ground to handle the situation. Tours will likely be extended. Through it all, the casualties mount and the complications grow. Iraq, again, dominates the program and the whip.First the state of play on the ground as best we can report it. CNN's Walter Rodgers with the watch, Walter a headline.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, ultimately the firepower and numbers of troops the United States has here points again to another military victory but you have to ask can you impose a democracy in Iraq by tanks and can you make the Iraqi people like you with so much bloodshed -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.Next to the Pentagon, tough questions today for the secretary of defense, Jamie McIntyre on duty again, Jamie a headline from you.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, despite taking heavy losses over the past few days in fighting all across Iraq. The Pentagon insisted today that it's dealing with a relatively small number of what it called thugs and assassins. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld called it a test of will and said the U.S. will prevail.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you.Finally, a story we expected to lead the program for much of the week. It didn't quite turn out that way. The president's national security adviser goes before the 9/11 commission tomorrow. CNN's Jeanne Meserve previews that tonight, Jeanne the headline.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It will be the Bush administration's formal rebuttal to the testimony of former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke who told the panel the Bush administration did not heed warnings about the danger posed by al Qaeda. Expect the questions to be pointed, persistent and perhaps partisan -- Aaron.BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get to you and the rest shortly.Also on the program tonight, the politics of war in a presidential election year and the echoes of a painful past. The Vietnam comparisons are more frequent each day, fair or not.Also, an eloquent, if not quite easy, look at Rwanda at a time when that small African country was at its ugliest, the awful moments captured in the power of a still photo.And later, an anecdote we hope though the headlines might say otherwise. We'll take a look at morning papers from around the country and around the world, all that and more in the hour ahead. Not an easy hour to be sure.We begin in Iraq where tonight there are fewer coalition casualties to report but still plenty of reasons for concern and plenty of violence too. For the third straight day, U.S. Marines fought to regain control of Fallujah, long a hotbed within the Sunni Triangle, where anti-U.S. sentiment has been the strongest.The military said tonight at least 30 enemy combatants were killed there today. There are also reports of serious civilian casualties that make the coalition's work far more complicated.Elsewhere in the Sunni Triangle, coalition forces remain in control in the city of Ramadi where 12 U.S. Marines died yesterday in an attack by insurgents. At least 18 enemy combatants were killed in Ramadi today according to the military.In other parts of Iraq from Baghdad's Sadr City to Kut in the south, things are fluid to say the least and the death toll climbs. In Baghdad today, a U.S. soldier was killed in an attack on an Iraqi police station bringing the total U.S. deaths in Iraq to 637.The military was adamant today. This is not a two front war. It is one front, the country of Iraq. We'll leave the semantics to others. The facts on the ground are simple to report in some respects, very complicated to solve. The growing violence among Iraqi Shiites represents a dangerous sign. While the formal militia may represent only a few thousand men there are signs that others are picking up the cause. The more it spreads, the more dangerous it gets for the Americans, for others in the coalition and for millions of Iraqis who want no part of this expanding fight.We begin tonight again with CNN's Walter Rodgers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS (voice-over): Day three, Fallujah, the dogs of war let loose. U.S. Marines battle inspired Iraqi insurgents to regain control of a city lost after four American civilian contractors were massacred there a week ago.In the fighting, bombs fell within a mosque compound infuriating, electrifying and unifying Muslims but an American general said insurgents had turned the mosque into a fortress.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: It can be attacked when there is a military necessity brought on by the fact that the enemy is storing weapons, using weapons, inciting violence, executing violence from its grounds.
RODGERS: Around Iraq a shift, no longer just ambushes but battles for cities, an-Najaf now largely in the hands of Muqtada al- Sadr's rebels. Ukrainian coalition troops pulled out of Kut, outnumbered by insurgents and Bulgarians in Karbala called for reinforcements. In Baghdad's Sadr City, scene of bloody fighting since Sunday, U.S. armor took up positions to crush the Shiites' Mehdi Army.
KIMMITT: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi Army.
RODGERS: Iraqi hospitals filled but accurate death tolls were difficult. Baghdad mosques issued calls for food and medicine for beleaguered cities. The message for Americans was different.
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY SPOKESMAN: Life is improving for Iraqis. Things are getting better for them.
RODGERS: But, Iraqis say the bloodshed turns people against the Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Americans will not -- didn't know what -- how to deal with the Iraqis.RODGERS: This man said the situation goes from bad to worse every day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS: Privately, many Iraqis say the American promise of democracy has left them with a bitter taste. They say their country has been bleeding under the American occupation -- Aaron.
BROWN: In Baghdad proper, not in Sadr City but in the city of Baghdad proper is it demonstrably different this week than it was a week ago?
RODGERS: Very much so, Aaron. As I've stood here throughout the night I have heard 50-caliber machine guns chugging away not very far behind me. I've heard much more frequent small arms fire than I heard when I was here in November and December and you can hear the occasional loud explosions. Yes, it is much more combative. You do hear fighting and you do hear shooting in the not too distant -- not too distant over my shoulders -- Aaron.
BROWN: What kind of -- when you talk about 50-caliber machine gun fire and the like what is it that's going on there? Is this like street to street fighting that's going on? Are these attacks on the Americans? What is it that seems to be happening in Baghdad proper?
RODGERS: Well, much of the fighting you hear from the northeastern part of the city, the Shiite enclaves of Sadr City. Having said that, we have had people tell us, phone CNN here in Baghdad and say that they see Iraqi insurgents, perhaps Shiites, perhaps Sunnis, we're not sure. The guerrillas come out at night. They run through the city. They put down improvised explosives devices, roadside bombs, thinking that the U.S. forces may come down the street. This is a city which remains very much torn and it is much more dangerous and has seen much more fighting in this past week than in the past several months -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter thank you, Walter Rodgers in Baghdad.The surge in violence across Iraq comes near the end of a massive rotation of U.S. troops in the region. New fresh troops have been coming in to replace a tired group of young men and women, many who have been in Iraq since the war started. They may now be there a bit longer. As the Pentagon acknowledged, tours may be extended because of this latest spasm of violence.Here's our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Along with insurgents on the ground, the Pentagon is now fighting a battle of perceptions. After several days of heavy losses, Pentagon officials are struggling to explain why they believe the U.S. is still winning.You yourself said that it was a test of wills today.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is.
MCINTYRE (on camera): Is this a turning point, a critical junction?
RUMSFELD: I wouldn't use that phrase. I thought the way I phrased it is about right. It's a moment on the path towards a free Iraq.
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Despite widespread fighting in the last few days across Iraq, the Pentagon insists it's dealing with a relatively small number of thugs and assassins.
RUMSFELD: You have a mixture of a small number of terrorists, a small number of militias coupled with some demonstrations and some lawlessness.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I think it's also important to remember what this is not and it's certainly a popular uprising or movement supported by the majority of Iraqis. It is not that at all.
MCINTYRE: Sources say that in a video conference with his national security team, President Bush was assured by top U.S. Commander General John Abizaid that the U.S. military's plan to aggressively attack anti-American forces will work and, while Abizaid has not asked for additional troops to be sent to Iraq, sources say he is planning to delay the departure of units that had been scheduled to rotate out after one year.Sources say elements from the 1st Armored Division are being shifted to hot spots in Iraq instead of packing for home. The Pentagon says military necessity trumps its promise of limiting tours in Iraq to just one year.MYERS: I think one thing we've always said from day one before major combat began is that what the combat commander on the ground needs in terms of resources, men, women, material, he'll get.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And the Pentagon insists the transfer of sovereignty will take place as scheduled June 30th and it's promising what it calls robust military actions to ensure that that transition takes place -- Aaron.
BROWN: So, today they say understandably it is not a popular uprising. Do you detect concern in the Pentagon that it might spread to exactly that?
MCINTYRE: I think that's exactly the concern. Certainly the officials I've talked to have expressed the idea that that's the really troublesome prospect. That's why they believe they have to take very aggressive action now to essentially nip this in the bud, to isolate the people who are fighting them and to show that they're not going to hunker down and recoil from patrolling Iraq but to confront it aggressively because the potential is for it to spin out of control.
BROWN: To what extent do they worry that Newton's law applies to the military as well that there will be an equal and opposite reaction that the attacks themselves will help create a popular uprising?
MCINTYRE: Well, they are concerned about that and they realize that to the extent that you have civilian casualties, to the extent that you're seeing attacking religious sites, just to the extent that you're using brute force that can have a reaction but they feel the far, far greater danger is to allow those who are opposed to the U.S. to not be opposed and that that will embolden them and they think that's really the bigger danger.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre with us again tonight. In some respects, the battle being fought were the battles expected to be fought a year ago, the street to street, house to house fights that never really materialized when Baghdad fell. Iraq never an easy place to report from is clearly more dangerous all the time.Colin McMahon is there for the "Chicago Tribune" and we're pleased to have him with us tonight. It's good to see you. Just let's pick up on this concern about popular uprising. Do you detect the Shiite side of this equation to be growing?
COLIN MCMAHON, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE" FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's what's happening is that a lot of regular Shiites, while they may not embrace Muqtada al-Sadr's political views or his policy of kind of confrontation, you know, there is some kind of respect for what these fighters have been able to do and the damage that they've inflicted on this great occupation force.
BROWN: What does that tell you about their views towards this great occupation force then?
MCMAHON: Well, I think it's clear that no one -- everybody wants the occupation to end. I mean the vast majority of Iraqis want the occupation to end. They also want security and they understand that right now the occupation forces are the best bet for that but there is a lot of sympathy for the view that the Americans need to get out of Iraq as soon as possible.
BROWN: Do they believe that what is going on now, people you talk to believe that what is going on now will hasten the day the Americans leave or will delay the day the Americans leave?
MCMAHON: Yes. I think, you know, that's a little bit more sophisticated argument and discussion than is going on right now in the past few days. In the past few days it's been much more visceral and people have kind of looked on it and while they think about it they kind of play it all out and say, okay, where might this lead?They get to that point. Then they say, wait a minute, we got to slow this down. But in the initial days it was like wow look at those guys. They took on those tanks. They took on those soldiers and they bloodied them pretty badly.
BROWN: So just to button this up, there is a sense that this is, among lots of Shiites at least, that this is -- what has gone on for the last few days is walking the country down a dangerous path.
MCMAHON: Yes. I mean certainly in the leadership that's the view. In a lot of kind of moderate Shiite areas that is definitely the view. They do not -- they understand that this could explode and I think the American military understands it could explode. They're watching. They're watching for a couple of things. They're watching for links between these Shiite militias who belong to Muqtada al-Sadr, between them and the Sunni, you know, the Fedayeen guys and they're looking for any kind of growth in popular support and right now they think they have it both under control but they say they're vigilant.
BROWN: Have we heard much from the Iraqi provisional government?
MCMAHON: Well there's been some comments. I mean the initial call was for calm but some of the leading Shiite politicians have criticized the Americans as well and said that they've kind of towed the line here and said, look, what's happening now with Sadr's militia cannot continue and these men have to stop these attacks.At the same time, they've been criticizing the Americans for attacks on civilians, for heavy handed measures and it's like they're not quite ready to condemn all of this stuff that's coming up from the grassroots.
BROWN: What are you looking for right now as a sign of where this all goes?
MCMAHON: I think, you know, we got a big Shiite and Muslim holiday coming up this week in (unintelligible). This, I think so much depends on the next few days and how the Americans are going to respond and what's going to happen in Najaf and Karbala when all these pilgrims gather.And if there's violence and it gets to be widespread, depending on the occupation forces' reaction, it could go very, very badly. I just think at this point it's really difficult for anybody to suggest they know what's going to happen.BROWN: Fair enough. Colin, thank you. Nice job tonight. Thanks for joining us. We look forward to talking to you again.It has been a week of intense fighting and intense coverage where Iraq is concerned. It seemed to us like a good day to step back and look at how the story is being reported in the Arab world.This is not some idle exercise. What they see in the Middle East, how they react to it has the potential to make the problems for the United States' side much more difficult. No snapshot of a single day's coverage is ever perfect but with that in mind we took a look today at what the Arab networks were showing their viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Beamed into millions of Arab homes, these are the images people across the Middle East and beyond are watching about the last few days of violence in Iraq.According to the reports, civilians are killed and badly hurt by today's fighting in Fallujah. Says the man described as the director of the hospital in that city, they, the Americans, are not letting us save the lives of our wounded.
AHMED AL-SHEIKH, CHIEF EDITOR, AL-JAZEERA: We concentrate on the suffering of the Iraqi people. That's what misses from our point of view. The people in Fallujah are suffering. The people in Ramadi are suffering. The people of southern Iraq are suffering. That's what is most important for us. We want to show this to our audience.
BROWN: And they certainly do. So does another Arab television channel Al Aribiya, smaller, seen primarily in Saudi Arabia its home base."What has America given us," asked this woman in Fallujah? "It gave us destruction and killing of our youth and destruction of our houses and the burning of our cars."
AL-SHEIKH: American soldiers whenever they are attacked they start shooting indiscriminately and this is unacceptable from my point of view. How can we interpret that in any other way?
BROWN: There were no interviews that we saw of any American military officials to give the reasons for the fighting. Both did interview different members of the Iraqi Governing Council and both were critical of the American offensive.While we make no claim to having viewed every second of Arab television over the last several days, it is clear what their overriding image is, civilian anger at the Americans, civilian suffering caused by the Americans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A look at their news today.Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the political battles on the home front where the rhetoric is certainly heating up, along with the violence overseas. And later in the program, a look at what to expect tomorrow when National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testifies before the 9/11 commission.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: We could make a case, we suppose, that a presidential campaign is no time to be grappling with Iraq in the air waves and on the Senate floor. You can also argue precisely the opposite that the question of the president's stewardship of American power and the expenditure of American lives ought to be faced squarely and openly in the political arena. In any case, the question is no longer theoretical if it ever was to begin with. From Capitol Hill tonight here's CNN's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the escalating violence, John Kerry in a radio interview compared the president's handling of Iraq to Vietnam.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Since I fought in Vietnam I have not seen an arrogance in our foreign policy like this.JOHNS: But Republican John McCain, also a Vietnam veteran and a Kerry friend said making such comparisons is flat wrong.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.
JOHNS: John Kerry's closest ally in Congress, Ted Kennedy, first called Iraq Bush's Vietnam on Monday and Wednesday the Senate's leading critic of the war, Robert Byrd, kept up the drumbeat. Byrd reciting Tennyson's poem about the doomed charge of the light brigade.
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: There's but to do and die into the valley of death rode the 600.JOHNS: Then invoking the "V" word.
BYRD: Surely, I am not the only one who hears echoes of Vietnam in this development.JOHNS: Republicans are furious. Senator Saxby Chambliss saying American lives could be endangered by the statements of politicians.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: Statements that tend to incite the opposition and to put our men and women in greater harm's way.JOHNS: Democratic Leader Tom Daschle accused Republicans of trying to stifle debate.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE, MINORITY LEADER: I think in an open democracy people ought to have a right to express themselves without fear of character assassination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in a time of war?
DASCHLE: Absolutely, especially in a time of war.
JOHNS (on camera): Daschle and many Democrats say more troops may be needed because of the worsening situation in Iraq, a view that may be picking up support among some moderate Republicans. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says the Congress will give the Pentagon whatever it says it needs.Joe Johns, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Joe Biden, the Democratic Senator from Delaware is neither a screamer nor a zealot nor a hack, at least not in our view. He is an influential member of the Senate on matters of foreign policy and a powerful voice, whether in the majority or not. As such, his views are not easily overlooked and regardless of where you stand on the war, he raises we think serious and challenging questions. We spoke with Senator Biden earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator, give me your quick take on your view of what's happening in Iraq and we'll go from there.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: A power struggle has ensued in the vacuum of not announcing what our policy is going to be in terms of June 30 when we hand over power and I think you're beginning to see that struggle and we're just caught in the crossfire.
BROWN: This is a struggle between whom then?
BIDEN: This is a struggle for the heart and soul of the Shia majority in the case of what's going on in the Shia territory and I think what you're seeing happening in Fallujah is a continuation of the struggle with the Sunnis. But the problem is now they're coalescing and the problem is further that we don't have a plan. There is no clear enunciation of to whom we're going to be turning over power and who is going to take the place of Bremer to negotiate those differences that are going to persist from the time we leave until a general election is held at the end of the year and a constitution is written.
BROWN: The U.N. is trying to do some negotiating. Does the U.N. have the authority right now to do what you think needs to be done?
BIDEN: What I think needs to be done is we have to invest the world in this and make this the political dynamic of the remainder of what needs to be done in Iraq should be essentially turned over to the Security Council so we take, as the president said, an American face off of the occupation.And we need to legitimize this incoming government and we need to legitimize the electoral process as well as the constitution that's going to be written and we're not going to do that by just transferring power from Mr. Bremer to a super ambassador presiding over an American embassy of 3,000 people. It's going to be a prescription, I believe, for disaster.
BROWN: Isn't it a little late in the game to be trying to take the American face off the occupation?
BIDEN: No. Well, by the way, it should have occurred six months ago, eight months ago, a year ago but with presidential leadership it could be done right now. I'm confident we could through presidential leadership agree with out NATO allies and the permanent members of the Security Council on a high commissioner taking the place of Mr. Bremer on July the 1st.And, in return, get a commitment from our NATO allies to make this a NATO operation and gradually increase the amount of NATO forces to do three things, one, train the Iraqi military; two, secure the border; and three, free up all our troops in northern Iraq.
BROWN: When you look at what's happening on the ground right now do you think of this as a spasm of violence or something bigger and therefore more dangerous?
BIDEN: If we don't come forward with a presidential plan I think it's something bigger and more dangerous. If we give General Abizaid the additional troops he needs now to quell the violence coupled with the world community signing on with us as to the future of Iraq, then I think it could be a spasm.We are at a very fateful moment, Aaron. I think that people are going to look back ten years from now at three dates, 9/11, 3/11 with regard to Madrid, and 6/30. That is when we turn over power to this yet to be identified Iraqi contingency and it has to have legitimacy and the only way it can do that is with the United Nations, the Security Council in particular putting its stamp on it.
BROWN: Just finally do you see any sign the administration is ready to do that?
BIDEN: I see a sign the struggle is still going on within the administration. It appears to be between the State Department and the uniformed military on one side of the equation and Mr. -- I don't know this for a fact but Vice President Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld on the other. I think their exit strategy is Chalabi in charge of Iraq. I don't think that's a sustainable strategy.BROWN: Senator, it's always good to have you with us. Hope we'll talk soon again.
BIDEN: Thank you very much, Aaron, I appreciate it.BROWN: Thank you, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)BROWN: Senator Joe Biden, we talked with him earlier today.Coming up on the program next, tomorrow National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice at long last in public under oath before the 9/11 commission.Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tomorrow, with war raging in Iraq and troops on the move in Afghanistan, the date that led to both takes center stage. After weeks of delay on the part of the White House and high political drama all around, the president's national security adviser will raise her right hand and then answer questions in public and under oath about 9/11. A preview tonight from CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
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JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 9/11 Commission has heard testimony from over 1,000 people. But some members say none of it was as important as what they will hear from Condoleezza Rice.
TIMOTHY ROEMER, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR NATIONAL POLICY: Dr. Rice is right in the hub, right in the middle, right in the nexus of all these decisions in the Bush administration. MESERVE: Among the questions commission members want her to answer, how high a priority was the threat from al Qaeda? How did the administration respond to intelligence in the summer of 2001 that an attack might be imminent? Why did it take the Bush administration seven months to develop a counterterrorism plan? Commission members spent Wednesday honing their questions.
JAMES THOMPSON, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I've got a briefcase full of news articles. I've got briefing book given to us by the staff. I'm going to be in our headquarters tonight and look at the classified briefing book that we can only read there in the secure facility.
MESERVE: Some members are paying particular attention to Rice's private testimony and information received since, including summaries of President Bush's daily intelligence briefings and, of course, the testimony of former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke.
THOMPSON: We have your book. And we have your press briefing of August 2002. Which is true?
MESERVE: The panel's quizzing of Clarke was characterized as sometimes hostile and political. Rice may see more of the same.
SLADE GORTON, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I don't mind harsh questions at all. I don't even particularly mind partisan questions, though I'm primarily interested in the answers.
MESERVE: But will time for questioning be gobbled up by Rice's 20-minute opening statement? THOMPSON: She's not going to leap out of the chair at 11:30 and say, I told you 2 1/2 hours. That's it. Goodbye. I think everybody will be satisfied.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Each commission member will be given roughly 10 minutes to question Rice, though the chairman can give them more time or cut them short, depending on how productive he perceives their line of questioning to be -- Aaron.
BROWN: 9:00 Eastern time tomorrow morning, right?
MESERVE: You got it.
BROWN: 9:00 Eastern time. I do have it. Thank you, Jeanne -- Jeanne Meserve. Before we go break, a few other stories that made news today, beginning with an update on an item from last night. Voters in the Los Angeles suburb of Inglewood have said no loudly to Wal-Mart. By a wide margin, they defeated a Wal-Mart-friendly ballot measure that would have allowed the company to build a so-called supercenter in the area without going through the normal environmental processes. A portion of Atlanta Airport was cordoned off earlier today after a makeshift bomb was found in a bathroom. Authorities say it was similar to a military flair. It contained a flammable chemical that could have caused considerable injury to anyone handling it. Fortunately, it did not. Still to come tonight, they've been called simply thugs, gangs and terrorists. We'll try to get a more detailed picture of the opponents of American soldiers these days in Iraq. We'll take a break first. From CNN, this is NEWSNIGHT
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BROWN: And there will be more coming in the days ahead, you can be sure of that. Earlier tonight, just in the last segment or so, Senator Joe Biden echoed a theme of the last few days, the notion that Iraq is fast approaching a sort of tipping point. We're now joined by Robert Orr. Mr. Orr served on both the National Security Council in the Clinton administration and last summer was part of the Pentagon's survey team in Iraq. And we're pleased to have him with us tonight. Mr. Orr, let's start, I guess, sort of simply here. When we look at the spreading of the violence to the Shia community, how ought we see that?
ROBERT ORR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: This is absolutely central. We have been focused for a while now on the so-called Sunni Triangle and the relatively small number of insurgents there. The fact is, though, the future of Iraq will be determined by what happens with the center of gravity in Iraq, which is the Shia community.
BROWN: Obviously, the -- the administration -- what the administration has been saying -- and I don't know that this is untrue -- I'm not suggesting it isn't -- that what you have are a small number of radical Shias who are causing a whole lot of problems. Clearly, there are a whole lot of problems. Do you degree with the notion that this is a relatively small and therefore manageable number of people?
ORR: The relatively small number, no, I have no agreement. But the major issue is how many people can that small number attract in how short a time. It is that old hearts and minds question. And, on that, I saw a lot more than 3,000 armed people just in the footage that I've seen in the last 24 hours in the streets of Iraq. So if the number is 3,000 in the Mahdi Army, we need to be thinking about how many are showing sympathies and willing to go out. That's the real question.
BROWN: Somebody said earlier on the program tonight -- I thought it was interesting -- that on the one hand moderate Shias seem to be saying, this is dangerous, we need to be careful here, we may be walking down a dangerous road, and on the other hand looking with some pride at what the militia was able to do.
ORR: We have made a number of mistaken assumptions in our short time in Iraq.One that is being challenged right now is the assumption that the so-called moderates and the radicals have nothing in common. In fact, they have proven that they do have some things in common. They're all frustrated and humiliated by having an occupying force there. And in the last 48 hours, we have heard a lot more complimentary rhetoric between Muqtada al-Sadr, the so-called radical cleric, and Ayatollah Sistani. The fact that they are mutually complimenting each other and not squaring off with each other is going 180 degrees against some of the assumptions we have been making up until now.
BROWN: Just a few practical questions, I guess. In your view, are there enough Americans or coalition troops on the ground to manage this moment and I guess the next three months going towards the handover?
ORR: I think the administration has kept an artificial set number of troops in Iraq. We need to go based on the professional judgment of the Pentagon.If they say we need more troops, we need to put in more troops. Right now I think today Secretary Rumsfeld finally started to cede a little ground here and acknowledge that it is possible that the scheduled rotation to bring 20,000 to 30,000 Americans out of Iraq is not likely to happen. So that's essentially an increment of that 20,000 to 30,000. We may need more. If that's what the Pentagon says, that's what we need to do.
BROWN: On the other side, is it clear to you at all that the insurgents are weaker today than they were a year ago or the insurgency is less of a concern that it was after Baghdad fell?
ORR: Oh, it certainly not less of a concern. Right after Baghdad fell, there was looting, there was pandemonium throughout Baghdad and many cities. So it is not as bad as that, because there is now some order, generalized order around the country. But as far as the insurgency goes, I'm not seeing any evidence that tells me that we are -- quote -- "winning" this war against insurgents. Quite the contrary. As we lock some folks up, kill others, there seem to be others taking their place. There is no fixed number of insurgents out there. It can go up. It can go down. And the key there is having a political strategy to defeat them, not just a military strategy.
BROWN: And tell me about that. How do you to that, when what is happening on the ground is that people are taking shots at you wherever you go?
ORR: The political strategy has to be the umbrella under which all of our military actions take place. We need to know what the shape of this future Iraqi government is going to look like. The administration is sticking to this artificial deadline of June 30, saying, come hell or high water, power will be turned over. It really matters who we turn it over to. There are an amazing numbers of very capable people in Iraq, Kurd, Shia, Sunni. We need to identify those people, put them together now, and be ready to turn something over to them. The problem is, we aren't identifying those people.And to the extent that we have, they are now afraid to stand at our side because of challenges from people like Sadr.
BROWN: When you say we aren't identifying these people, do you really believe that the CPA does not know who it would at least like to turn power over to?
ORR: We have had a big weakness with the CPA from the beginning. We didn't get enough civilians in there early enough. We didn't get the ones with the right skill sets. We don't have enough people out in the community pulsing them about who the right Iraqis are. If we had those people in place, I would be much more confident that the signals we're getting from the Iraqi people could be translated into identifying those leaders. Sure, we know who a few key leaders are, but we need more than 20 or 25 people identified. We need 1,000, 2,000 key leaders identified.
BROWN: Mr. Orr, thank you a lot. Good to talk to you.
ORR: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Ahead on the program, a photographer looks into the face of evil in Rwanda and sees a glimmer of hope. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
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BROWN: In our ongoing love affair with the still photograph, we never lose sight of how little there is to love in many of the photographs we show. Our regard instead is often for something else, for the act, we think, in making the photograph, of bearing witness even to the unspeakable, especially then. As a photographer for "Magnum," Gilles Peress traveled to Rwanda at a moment when the unspeakable was everywhere. With much of the world looking the other way, he bore witness eloquently. A decade later, he's now a staff photographer for "The New Yorker" magazine. His collection of photos from the Rwandan genocide haunt him and us long after the fact. The book is called "The Silence." The images are not easy.
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GILLES PERESS, PHOTOGRAPHER: What I like about photography is that is answers questions I never thought I could ask. I've always been very focused on what happens when two populations who look alike, live alike, you know, suddenly get into this tangle and this conflict. At a distance, it looked fairly spontaneous. It looked like two ethnic groups. And it looked like the more numerous one, which was the Hutu, was in the process of aggressing the other one, supposedly out of fear of the advance of the RPF from the north. Once I arrived, I realized that all this was completely organized and planned and methodical. The RPF asked to go to some other big massacre site, Nyarubuye; 1,000 people were killed there. It was discovered by the RPF as they were advancing, retaking control of Rwanda. The extent of it was phenomenal. This is -- this is a child. This is a classroom. This is in the church. This is in the courtyard. Everything was dead. There was -- there were no birds singing. There was nothing. It was all silence. Everybody was dead. Every refugee camps inside Rwanda during the genocide -- I also visited refugee camps in Tanzania and Goma. Besides the squalor of the camps, because this happened very quickly and you're talking about massive population displacements, in the millions, camps that go as far as the eye can see, besides the impact of disease, like the cholera epidemic in Goma, what was most disturbing was to meet in those camps men who clearly had killed. There is something about the eyes that you cannot miss. When I photograph, even when I put books together, I do not do it with a purpose of explaining something or impacting somebody's perception, soul or emotions. It is a process for me to try to understand what reality is made of. There cannot be progress without awareness, which is that change comes from awareness and understanding. I'm here more as a citizen who wants to remember these people, these deaths. It is so important to remember that it happened and what is our responsibility in it as citizens, as individuals. Even in our case beyond our function as a journalist, I think there is a moment where you have to go to a different level of awareness. That's the only reason why I'm here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Rwanda 10 years ago. Morning papers next.
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BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we'll begin around the world. The -- not actually anything. What is interesting to me is how newspapers are headlining Iraq and what it tells us, if anything, about the paper. We'll just sort of see how this plays out. "The International Herald Tribune" -- this is the around-the- world part -- published by "The New York Times." It is a pretty -- by my accounting, my thinking, a pretty straight lead here. "Fighting is Fierce in Iraq as Clashes Spread." And then just to kind of nod to "The International Herald Tribune," the international part, "Ukrainian Troops Cede Kut to Sadr Supporters." Down here, out of the Pentagon, "U.S. to Send Thousands More Troops Into Iraq."
This is the delayed rotation we told you about. But that's a very straightforward headline. "Christian Science Monitor," good to have them with us two nights in a row now. Looks like a habit is forming. "War Zones Erupt Again in Iraq With Growing Conflict and More Casualties. Postwar Battle Has Mushroomed into Something Far Different Than Expected." Kind of an interesting headline there. "Shiites Taxing Thin U.S. Forces" also on the front page. And down at the bottom of the front page, I'm not sure what this story is about. I haven't had a chance to read it. "Congress, Too, Missed the 9/11 Threat. Many Warnings." So that's "The Christian Science Monitor." For those of you who don't get it, you may want to pick that up.
Now "The Washington Times," a more conservative paper. And this is what I would call a half-full headline. That is to say, the cup was half-full. "Marines Secure Part of Fallujah." That is no doubt true. "Troop Rotation Will Be Delayed, Rumsfeld Says, "Democrats Split on Iraq After Rise in Violence" are the major front-page stories in "The Washington Times." But that's an interesting way to headline it. It's not an inappropriate headline, by my thinking. It's just interesting. "Marines Secure Part of Fallujah." It's certainly part of the story. How we doing? Thirty. Oh, my goodness.
Let me get to the Detroit paper, then, quickly. "Detroit News" leads with hockey, because it is hockey town. But this is the best story or the worst, depending on your point of view in Detroit these days. "Death Stalks Detroit Children. Child Mortality Rate Ranks Highest of the Large Cities, 68 Percent Above the National Average." And to make matters worse, the city is in the midst of a terrible homicide spasm. Detroit slayings are up over 50 percent from last year. Anyway, we're going to send a crew there to take a look at Detroit, which seems to be doing some pretty serious soul-searching.
By the way, the weather tomorrow in Chicago is...
(CHIMES)
BROWN: Thank you."Lackluster."We'll update the day's top stories after the break.
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BROWN: Quickly recapping our top story tonight, coalition forces bracing for another rough day in Iraq today. Marines battled insurgents again in Fallujah, killing at least 30 Iraqis, according to the military. No word yet on Marine casualties, if any, fighting as well with Shiites in the south. In spite of it all, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld says the situation is not spinning out of control, though he did say troops already in Iraq may be kept in country longer, if needed. Read that, more troops on the ground.Tomorrow on the program, extensive coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 Commission and what it all means. And we will see you then.
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