July 2, 2004
And Bill Cosby has done it again, raised issues in public that most wouldn't dare even mention in private. Jason Carroll is in New York, Jason a headline please.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, Cosby's comments have definitely stirred up a lot of emotions within the black community, some saying his comments were too harsh, others saying he's making some tough but valid points -- John.
KING: Thank you, Jason, back with you and all of you shortly.
KING: It's like the mother rule. You can say something bad about your mother but good luck to anyone else who disses her. That's the way the "N" word plays out for many in the African American community. It's offensive, it's said, by someone who isn't black but to some blacks it's perfectly OK and, in some cases, even considered a term of endearment.You hear it on the street. You hear it, of course, in rap music but its charm is wearing thin among some who believe that personal responsibility needs to eclipse street talk, as CNN's Jason Carroll reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): It's Bill Cosby's new routine but it's not comedy.
BILL COSBY, ENTERTAINER: The more you invest in that child the more you're not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word nigger is an accepted word, you're so hip with niggers, but you can't even spell it.
CARROLL: Cosby blames parents and the recording industry for promoting artists who use the word. For years this issue has been debated within the black community. In Chicago...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The "N" word is used in an endearing manner among African Americans.
CARROLL: A black university in Washington, D.C.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes you need to come out with a shocking statement to get people to stand up and take notice.
CARROLL: A basketball court in Fort Greene Brooklyn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate the word. It makes my skin crawl when I hear it no matter who says it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel that using the word nigger is just a way that we can, a way that us younger kids can express ourselves.
CARROLL: How do you justify it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I said it's a brother.
CARROLL: But I mean, but you use the term as brother, you're saying...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't use it as the white people use it.
CARROLL: Industry leaders say rap lyrics can be provocative but also insightful.
RUSSELL SIMMONS, CEO, RUSH COMMUNICATIONS: Sometimes the poetry or the music is a reflection of conditions that we need to look at closely.
CARROLL: Cosby's main message take more responsibility. Stop blaming those outside the community for problems within it.
COSBY: It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us.
CARROLL (on camera): What about this thought of him saying that "we've got to stop, the community does too much blaming for problems that exist within the community," what do you think about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's true.
CARROLL: You do think that's true?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone who is just exorbitantly wealthy making these comments about people who are poor (unintelligible) classes.CARROLL: But Edna Hunt (ph) says many from her generation agree with Cosby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can't keep (unintelligible) up all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the heartfelt intent is to inspire and to raise the bar.
CARROLL: At least it is raised inspiring discussion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: But not enough people are taking advantages of some of the opportunities made by people who made sacrifices during the civil rights movement. Now, again, these are comments that we've heard before but hearing them this time from this man really seems to have struck a nerve -- John.
KING: Struck a nerve, Jason, and started a very public debate. From your reporting are there any obvious fault lines here? Is it a class debate? Mr. Cosby obviously is very well off financially. Or is it a generational debate?
CARROLL: Generational definitely, many of the older people that we spoke to seem to share Cosby's viewpoint, many of the younger people not so. Also socioeconomic, you find that a lot of people in the black community say well those who -- this is really a discussion between the haves and the have nots. The haves, who do not like this type of language and the have nots who say, look, this language is part of the street. And in terms of taking responsibility try living where we live and then talk about responsibility -- John.
KING: Jason Carroll for us in New York tonight, Jason thank you very much.Now we want to continue this discussion now with the director and producer of a controversial and gritty new documentary called, you guessed it, "The N Word." Todd Williams and Helena Echegoyen join us from our Los Angeles bureau. Thank you both for joining us.Todd Williams let me start with you with the same question I just asked Jason Carroll. Break this down. What did you learn in doing this documentary about how this debate breaks down within the African American community?
TODD WILLIAMS, AUTHOR, "THE N WORD": Yes, I mean there are certainly two sides. There are people who really do like to use it and freely use it as much as they can. And then there's the other side that sort of recoil every time they hear it. They're very bothered by it.
KING: And, Helena, in your experience, I saw the Reverend Jesse Jackson on TV earlier today and he said this is not a new debate in the African American community. It's just that white people are starting to notice it because somebody like Bill Cosby is stepping in. Is that a fair statement?
HELENA ECHEGOYEN, PRODUCER, "THE N WORD": Well, in our documentary, which airs this Sunday at 9:00 p.m., we talk about that phenomena. We talk about the fact that as hip-hop culture has gone global the word has been exported in a way that we couldn't have predicted.
KING: And Mr. Cosby talks about street language but, Todd, a lot of people who may have started on the street are making a lot of money off this, aren't they?
WILLIAMS: Yes, that's that same old mantra we hear all the time from rappers, which is, you know, basically greed is good, to borrow from Gordon Gekko and the movie "Wall Street" and that's what they're doing. Everything's fine as long as we're making money, you know, where...
KING: Helena do you -- I'm sorry, Todd, keep going.
WILLIAMS: No, I was just saying we're rappers. We hear a lot of people say, you know, we're businessmen. That's what we do, you know, and as long as they're making money they feel like it's almost, it's commendable in their mind.
KING: Let me ask you both your own personal experiences. In your everyday conversations do you use the word?
ECHEGOYEN: I don't. I mean I'm a business person. I don't find any occasion to use that word, you know. I don't use MF. I don't use the "C" word, I mean.
WILLIAMS: It's not a part of who I am. It's not part of my being. I don't make a point of using it. I mean but I also feel the need to censor myself. I don't feel like, ah, you know, I can't say this, you know. But, again, in the documentary we talk about context a lot. It's also very much about context. I would never say it in mixed company. I would never say it certainly around in a group of white people. That would make them feel very uncomfortable and that's not something I would want to do.But I mean does it have occasion to slip out here and there when I'm with friends, yes, yes, but I don't think it's doing any damage when I do it and it's something again we address in the documentary.But, you know, in terms to address what Mr. Cosby is saying he's saying that this word does a lot more damage to the psyche of black America and that's what he's just trying to point out.
KING: In the documentary I know you explain the historical origins of this word. Help us.
ECHEGOYEN: Well, some peg it to the slave trade. Some say its origins are Dutch. Some say its origins are Spanish or Portuguese. Pretty much it's been tied, its derogatory context has been tied to the slave trade here in America and a desire to sort of give it a pejorative context.
KING: Todd Williams, who are you trying to reach with this powerful work, a broad audience, a specific niche?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I wanted -- you know what I really hope that everybody watches it because the broader argument in our documentary is that this word isn't just about the word nigger, it's about every racial slur in the English language.And if you try -- people have been asking me why did I call it "The N Word" and why didn't I just call it nigger. The reason I called it "The N Word" was because I thought, you know, how ironic that we can't even call it nigger anymore.If you were to use it on the show, John, you wouldn't say nigger, you would say the "N" word and I think that's sad because when you change that you're trying to change history.
KING: Let me jump in on that point. I was talking to the show's producer coming on. I was raised in Boston during forced bussing, during racial riots, and my father told me at a very young age if he ever heard I had spoken the word I might never speak again. How has the evolution of this word just over the last 20 years, say, both in the white community and in the African American community in terms of the use of the word?
WILLIAMS: Well, I mean it's obviously very, again, ironic that you turn on the TV you can hear white kids saying it. You hear them throw it back and forth pretty freely. I mean I've seen it. I've heard it. There are clips in the documentary where a movie "Black and White" where there's a whole subculture. I don't know if it's as popular as it used to be but it's called "Wiggers," you know, white kids who think they're niggers, hence the title "Wiggers."I think it's one of these words it's always going to be here, you know, and it will get pushed further, further and further back into the sort of recesses of the mind where maybe 20 years from now someone says it in open company and someone sort of snickers and laughs and says, "Oh my God, I can't believe you used the word nigger," you know, but I don't think it will -- you know we're a far more integrated society than we used to be.
KING: Helena, your opinion as this debate intensifies, will the word at least to some ever lose its sting?
ECHEGOYEN: Well, I believe it's a generational thing. I mean even among older African Americans it's still extremely painful and rightfully so. I mean they've had experiences that we have not.I think, you know, the same thing happens in Germany with the Holocaust. The same thing happens in Japan with the war as generations die off and as younger people revise their relationship to their own history words change.
KING: I want to thank you both. It's a fascinating subject and I want to thank you both for a fascinating discussion. Todd Williams, Helena Echegoyen, thank you for joining us tonight.
ECHEGOYEN: Thank you.
KING: Thank you. Good luck for your documentary.Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the second major diplomat in a week visits Sudan where a million people have been driven out of their homes. Will the latest high profile visitors make a difference?And later a patriot speaks out about America, terrorism, and caring about both.From Washington this is NEWSNIGHT.
