Interview with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf; Pentagon Downplays Possible Top al Qaeda Capture; Violence In Iraq Escalates Approaching Anniversary
Aired March 18, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone or good morning.It's about 8:00 in the morning now in Islamabad. Twenty-four hours ago we stood on this rooftop and said events have a way of trumping plans. The plan was to be on an airplane heading home. The event in this case was an interview we conducted about 12 hours ago with the Pakistani President Musharraf and what he said in that interview, the first indication that Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two al Qaeda leader, was in the sights, perhaps in the grasp of the Pakistani army.Should they get this man it will not be an end to the global war on terror but it will be a measure of justice for the 3,000 people who died on 9/11, a measure of justice for the hundreds of people al Qaeda operatives have killed at his direction and in his planning. That is our headline the hunt for al-Zawahiri that is going on in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan tonight.Other headlines in the whip and we begin from the Pentagon with CNN's Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today Pentagon officials were attempting to inject a dose of cold reality into the speculation that the Pakistani military might be closing in on bin Laden's number two, suggesting that the intelligence is unclear at this time who exactly is in that area surrounded by the Pakistani troops.
BROWN: Jamie, we would second that.To the White House next, and CNN's Suzanne Malveaux who has the watch, Suzanne a headline from you.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, this certainly could be the break that the administration has been hoping for to turn the tide away from criticism that the war was a mistake but the outcome of this search is far from certain.
BROWN: Suzanne, thank you.And finally, in the whip tonight on approaching now the anniversary of the beginning of the war with Iraq and at the end of a bloody week there CNN's Walter Rodgers, Walter a headline tonight.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. The threshold for violence in Iraq appears to be increasing daily this as Americans prepare to mark the first year anniversary of their lightning quick victory in Iraq, having said that, also increasing a tendency on the part of Iraqis to blame Americans for all their woes -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you.And one more headline from us. You'll hear the interview that is being talked about around the world tonight, the interview we conducted 12 hours ago with Pakistani President Musharraf, his thoughts on the war on terror, his thoughts about this hunt going on now for al-Zawahiri and the sale of nuclear material and nuclear technology that his country engaged in to rogue nations around the world, all that and more in the hour ahead.But we begin, as you know we must, with what might very well be a critical moment, at least a psychologically critical moment in the global war on terror. Up in the mountains in some of the most inhospitable terrain you can imagine, inhospitable squared to be honest, there is a fight going on.It has been going on for several days now. Casualties have been taken. Prisoners have been taken and there is a sense that this is a critical battle because in the center of it may be a high-ranking al Qaeda operative Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two man in the al Qaeda organization.The first indications, the formal indications that we had that this might be going on came in our interview with President Musharraf. This is the part of the conversation that is being talked about tonight in all corners of the world.
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GEN. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: The resistance that is being offered by the people there we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who but they are giving fierce battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we've pounded them with artillery.I spoke to the corps commander just now. I knew you were going to ask me this question so I thought I should be current on it. The net is there. We are there. They see very strong dug-in positions. The had -- the houses actually there are almost forts. They are mud forts and all these forts are occupied and they are dug in and they have been giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high value target there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We'll hear much more from President Musharraf later in this program but there is more to talk about on this aspect of the interview and on this aspect of the story. As we said, there's a very fierce fight going on between these well-trained and highly motivated al Qaeda fighters and a very sophisticated and in many cases American trained Pakistani army. This fight is being watched very closely and perhaps even literally by officials at the Pentagon so let's start there and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): After days of fierce fighting, Pakistan's military thinks it might be closing in on Ayman al-Zawahiri but lacking any independent intelligence indicating al-Zawahiri is in the area surrounded by Pakistani troops, the Pentagon is downplaying the idea his capture is imminent or that getting him or Osama bin Laden will break al Qaeda.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It would be an important step but it would not end the terror. It's not going to end with their capture.
MCINTYRE: U.S. officials say the operation in Pakistan's southern Waziristan province is a Pakistani military operation with no U.S. combat troops involved but the U.S. does have a significant troop presence right across the border in Afghanistan, including U.S. Special Forces teams whose specific mission is to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his number two.And the U.S. is flying unmanned spy planes equipped with night vision thermal cameras along the border searching for al Qaeda fighters who may attempt to escape into Afghanistan. It's all part of a U.S. military spring offense code named Operation Mountain Storm.With Pakistan forces exerting unprecedented military pressure in the largely ungoverned tribal areas and some tribes helping too, the U.S. is hoping to catch bin Laden or his lieutenants in a pincer move, a classic hammer and anvil strategy but the U.S. is well aware of how difficult it can be to pin down a single individual in the rugged mountain terrain.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They know the terrain. They know the escape routes and if it's not sealed perfectly, if the discipline of the Pakistani troops is not pursued throughout the night, there's a good chance that someone could get away.
MCINTYRE: In December of 2001, it's believed Osama bin Laden slipped past U.S. troops and local Afghan fighters who thought they had him trapped in Tora Bora, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Stay with us.Also with us now in Islamabad is our bureau chief here, Ash-har Quraishi and Ash-har let me start with you. When you listen to the interview with President Musharraf he says I'm not going to put any specific names on it. It's a high value target, so why do we believe that it might be al-Zawahiri?
ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN ISLAMABAD BUREAU CHIEF: Well, it's not just the strength or the intensity of the fighting that we're seeing at this point, the resistance from these al Qaeda fighters. We also have information from intelligence sources and military sources who were involved in this operation that indicate that they do have intelligence on the ground.As you'll remember, this operation beginning earlier in the week and they did take into custody some al Qaeda fighters and they say that they've been interrogating these suspects and from some of the information they've gotten from them the indication is that al- Zawahiri is within this compound and is with these 200 al Qaeda fighters.So, it's information that they're getting from the arrests they've already made that is helping them to believe that al-Zawahiri himself is also holed up with these fighters.
BROWN: Jamie, at your end publicly it's understandable how the Pentagon is playing this and, as we said earlier, we second that. It's hard to know precisely what's going on up there. Privately, in the halls of the building, is there a sense that something major is afoot?
MCINTYRE: Well, I have to say that the hallway sense here was that the story was way ahead of itself. They have so much experience here with close calls with almost getting somebody and then it not happening that they were very concerned about the rising expectation. Plus, the U.S. doesn't have any intelligence of its own. You know they do have those high tech surveillance equipment but as was just pointed out the best intelligence comes from people on the ground and they have to take the Pakistani military's word for it that they have some good reason to believe that al-Zawahiri is there. So, there's a lot of downplaying of expectation here because they're just not sure what they're dealing with.
BROWN: Do you know much about the kind of weaponry that the United States has provided to the Pakistani army and the degree to which that weaponry might be effective in dealing with this matter?
MCINTYRE: Well, I mean not really. The Pakistani army is pretty well equipped and they have -- they do have higher tech communications equipment. There are a small number of U.S. advisers as well. You know the Pakistani government isn't inviting or allowing the U.S. military to operate across the border but there's a small number of military personnel serving in an advisory and liaison capacity providing intelligence, helping with communication, even providing some advice, less than about a dozen or so. So, the Pakistani military is pretty well equipped to deal with this, it just sort of remains to be seen how they're able to employ that equipment.
BROWN: OK. Let's bring into this now Ryan Chilcote who is in Afghanistan. Ryan, on your side of the border are you hearing -- I'm sure you're hearing some hope. What else are you hearing?
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hope and expectation. That really describes the position of the U.S. military and the government of Afghanistan. They would like to see the government of Pakistan, the Pakistani paramilitary there in the tribal areas keep that pressure up militarily on al Qaeda and Taliban that they believe are hiding out there.And the hope is, Aaron, that even if those Pakistani paramilitaries are not able to either capture or kill al Qaeda or Taliban in that area that at a minimum they will be able to push them out and that those fighters will run to the west into Afghanistan. That is, of course, where the U.S. military is conducting its own operation, if you will, in tandem with the Pakistanis.The U.S. military operation is called Mountain Storm. Two soldiers just within the last 24 hours killed in that operation. Basically you have U.S. soldiers working together with soldiers from the Afghan National Army. That's the army here that the United States is training, patrolling that border, looking for any fighters that might come through those mountain passes, those mountain passes of course opening up now. The snow is thawing and so they're ready. In fact, Colin Powell before he left for Pakistan said that if any of those fighters come over the border, the U.S. military will be ready for them here.Now, of course, they could go north or south but the thought is that they would come here to the west because quite frankly the people on the border in Afghanistan identify more with the people just over the border there in Pakistan tribally and ethnically and maybe even in terms of nationhood more than they do with their own government here in Afghanistan -- Aaron.BROWN: Ryan, thank you. Jamie, thank you. And, Ash-har here in Islamabad, thank you. You've done terrific work today. Thank you very much.
QURAISHI: Thank you.
BROWN: All of this, as you can imagine, is being watched very closely, very carefully at the White House. The president is scheduled on the anniversary of the war with Iraq to make a speech today on progress in the war in Iraq and progress in the war on terror.And too, if it were to turn out at least and al-Zawahiri was captured, that would be a great top to an important speech, particularly given that we are at the beginning of what looks to be a very fierce political campaign, so to the White House next and CNN's Suzanne Malveaux
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MALVEAUX (voice-over): Upon President Bush's return from a visit with U.S. troops, reporters shouted if he knew whether al Qaeda's number two had indeed been captured.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not know anything new.
MALVEAUX: Administration officials say it's much too early to know but if Ayman al-Zawahiri was captured on the eve of the one year anniversary of the U.S. war with Iraq it would be a tremendous coup.
DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: You can't underestimate the importance of his operation or the role that he plays in the operation when you start to characterize the level of fish. Some people like to call them big fish. He's definitely a whale.
MALVEAUX: But White House officials were also very careful to play down expectations.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It would, of course, be a major step forward in the war on terrorism because he's obviously an extremely important figure but I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting one al Qaeda leader is going to break up the organization.
MALVEAUX: That's the position officials have used to minimize the significance of Osama bin Laden's unknown whereabouts.
RICE: We've always said that even with Osama bin Laden, who we'd all like to see brought to justice that that will not be the end of al Qaeda. They have local leadership. They have other national leadership.
(END VIDEOTAPE)MALVEAUX: And the White House is trying to avoid the worst possible scenario. That is expectations of a big catch and then a possible let down -- Aaron.
BROWN: Suzanne, thank you, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House and it's a good point to underscore here. This is something that is very much in motion and it's not clear at all how it's going to end or even if every element at this point is precisely correct that it is, in fact, al-Zawahiri who is in their sights.Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight we'll have more on the man that many believe is the brains behind al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri.And later more of our interview with President Musharraf of Pakistan, a man caught in the middle between the United States and al Qaeda, between moderation and extremism.From Pakistan this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: If the face of al Qaeda belongs to Osama bin Laden, if he is the inspiration and the financier if you will, then it is said that the brains of the operation belong to Ayman al-Zawahiri.He is a man who could have gone in a very dramatically different direction with his life, a man born of privilege in Egyptian society, a man who was trained as a doctor, could have spent his life saving lives.He ran up against a fork in the road and went in a different direction, a direction that has clearly led to the deaths of thousands of people. Here's the biography of the man at the center of all of this reporting today from CNN's Jonathan Mann.
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JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ayman al-Zawahiri first met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan during the late '80s.
AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI: Working with Brother bin Laden. We know him since more than ten years. We have fought with him here in Afghanistan. We are working with him in Sudan and many other places.MANN: Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden went public with their terrorist alliance in May of that year. The two men issued a fatwah, a declaration, declaring war on them and told Muslims that it was their duty to kill Americans anywhere they found them.A few weeks later, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked by suicide bombers driving trucks. Ayman al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden would both be indicted charged with masterminding those attacks. U.S. government sources believe that Ayman al-Zawahiri was a key player in the attacks on Washington and New York. Since September 11th, Ayman al-Zawahiri raised his public profile appearing at bin Laden's side in several videos.
AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people you must ask yourselves why all this hate against America?
MANN: He issued this audio tape in October, 2002 threatening new attacks against the west.
AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): America and its deputies should know that their crimes will not go unpunished. We advise them to make a hasty retreat from Palestine, the Arabian Gulf, Afghanistan and the rest of the Muslim states before they lose everything.
MANN: A series of audio messages followed and these pictures of al-Zawahiri and bin Laden released on the second anniversary of 9/11, actual date unknown.
AL-ZAWAHIRI: We want to say to the whole world who are we.MANN: It has been almost two decades since Ayman al-Zawahiri said he wanted the whole world to hear his message. The world heard.Jonathan Mann, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We're joined now from Washington by Daniel Benjamin. Dan is a senior fellow of strategic and international studies and the author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." It's good to have him. And in Islamabad with us here on the rooftop Ken Robinson, who works national security issues with us and has a detailed resume in such matters.But, Dan, let me start with you. If al-Zawahiri's capture or death, if that's where we are and that's what this leads to, doesn't end the war on terror, and no one believes it will, what is its significance?
DANIEL BANJAMIN, CO-AUTHOR, "THE AGE OF SACRED TERROR": Well, it's certainly significant in bringing closer to an end at least the chapter of the war on terrorism that was primarily about al Qaeda because he was right at the heart of it. He brought an enormous amount of know-how and he really formulated the ideology that now motivates so many jihadist terrorists around the world. The most important thing is it will be a big symbol. It will show America is determined and it will show that there's nowhere to hide.
BROWN: So it is a psychological victory as much as anything?
BENJAMIN: Oh, absolutely. At this point, I think Ayman al- Zawahiri and bin Laden have been largely out of the loop in terms of the practical planning and organization of terrorist activity. They may have issued general guidelines and incited followers to act but in many ways they've been surpassed now by other groups, other networks such as the one of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who has become quite famous lately, groups in many different countries. So, the actual impact in the war on terror will be limited but it will -- there will be a big symbolic benefit.
BROWN: All right, let me turn to Ken. Ken, the Pakistani Army is no third world army. It's a pretty sophisticated group but they are facing some well-trained, well motivated guys out there somewhere behind us and it is essentially for the army an away game, if you will.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's not just an away game, it's a pick-up away game very quickly. What they sent in first was a militia and that militia was aggressively hurt by 18 guys, first string, al Qaeda trained folks, 200 of them.And then they had to regroup and bring in Special Operations forces and bring in regular army corps and now they've regrouped again and planned another assault. They're facing a very aggressive enemy in an area where they've never been in the last 30 years.
BROWN: You were sitting in the room with us 12 hours ago when we talked with President Musharraf and you'll recall that he described that first day of the fight, he said we were careless in how we went after them.
ROBINSON: Not only were they careless but they didn't anticipate the enemy's ability to plan for defenses. This enemy had target reference points which were registrations for mortar rounds which enabled them to cover all the high speed avenues of approach, the road intersections and they hurt them significantly as they approached and they realized that they were facing something new and different.
BROWN: Dan, on this side of the border, on the Pakistani side of the border is there much the U.S. military, much the Pentagon can do in support of the Pakistanis?
BENJAMIN: Well, I think there are a number of different overhead surveillance intelligence assets that can be deployed to help the Pakistanis. There may be some other kinds of technical collection that can be done.Of course there's also the possibility of air power being brought to bear if the Pakistanis themselves don't have it. I mean we do have -- we do have air power in the region but I think a lot of this is, you know, in a closed box that's beyond us right now. It's very hard to guess what's going on in there.
BROWN: And, Ken, just on the subject of what the intelligence can provide, if these guys, there's some speculation they might have, tried to get out of the net, break out of this circle that they were in could the intelligence have spotted that in the dead of night?
ROBINSON: Yes, they could. They have thermal imaging. They have moving target indicators from systems that can be platforms flying overhead and they can be relaying that information in real time to the Pakistanis.
BROWN: Ken, thank you. Dan, thanks as well. We appreciate both of you with us today.Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight from Pakistan, we'll go back to Iraq, a war that continues on this first anniversary, another car bombing yesterday. We take a break first.From Islamabad and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: Almost a year now since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Iraq in many ways has been transformed, some in big ways, some in small. We ought never lose sight of the progress that has been made there. We saw it when we were there earlier in the week but it's also impossible to ignore the enormity of the problems that remain and principally among them is the security problem.Almost 700 people have died in suicide bombings in Iraq in the last year. At least three, at least three died in the south of the country in a suicide bombing in Basra today. In Baghdad itself, the search is officially over for the victims of yesterday's horrible car bombing there. The search is over but the search for answers has hardly begun.Here's CNN's Walter Rodgers.
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RODGERS (voice-over): An Iraqi woman surveys her lost world destroyed by a murderous car bomb the previous night in Baghdad. A local Baghdad TV station had a camera rolling Wednesday when the bomb was triggered. Twelve hours later what was once a quite Baghdad neighborhood was still smoldering, acrid smoke hanging over this city of five million.Lieutenant Colonel Mark Coate surveying the bomb crater imagined what it would have been like to have been at Ground Zero when the 1,000 pounds of explosives went off rocking the foundations of buildings half a mile away.LT.
COL. MARK COATE, U.S. ARMY: It's a great deal of heat. The blast effects are enormous. Anybody within probably 50 to 80 yards would have felt the blast effects to the point where it would have incapacitated them if not killed them.
RODGERS: "We only felt a big boom, just like a rocket. Whoosh. And we were hit. My sister started screaming," this man said. The next morning, Iraqis were asking, why? Why? There is no concentration of Americans or British in this neighborhood. An American general in Baghdad blamed Islamist militants, saying they're trying to thwart coalition efforts to build a civil society here, but the Arab street is not buying that. "When America came, it was supposed to protect us, wasn't it? Such a big Army. Is it here to protect us or only itself?" Abu Yasub (ph) asked. In the southeastern Iraqi city of Basra, a day later, another explosion, conflicting reports about whether it was a car bomb or a roadside bomb detonated when a British military convoy passed. All the fatalities were Iraqi civilians. In Fallujah, in the volatile Sunni Triangle, it looked to many like the U.S. military occupation was coming unraveled, after a clash between gun-toting Iraqis and American soldiers resulted in one boy, a Muslim sheik and perhaps others being killed. The Americans were blamed, although they claimed they were fired upon first and some witnesses confirmed that.
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RODGERS: It's a given among U.S. officials here that violence in Iraq will increase over the coming weeks and months. And looming above all that now is the specter that the United States is now locked into a long-term guerrilla war with Islamist militants in this part of the world -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, is it your sense and is it the military's sense that the violence we've seen over the last week is connected to, related to the anniversary of the war?
RODGERS: I think that's the case. It's increasingly becoming more so. And I think the day you have to be most careful here in Baghdad and Iraq will be Sunday the 21st, because that's when the Iraqis will remember the time the Americans first invaded this country. It's going to be a very, very risky, tense weekend -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, stay safe. Thank you, Walter Rodgers, back in Baghdad. We'll take a break here. Wolf Blitzer joins us from New York with the day's other stories. Later in the program, our interview with Pakistani President Musharraf, the interview that made news.Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer in New York with some of the other stories making news around the country and the world. First stop Spain, where police have arrested five more suspects in connection with the bombings last week in Madrid. One suspect is Spanish. The other four are Arab. Meantime, the number of people killed in the bombings today reached 202. Just north of Paris, the bomb scare along a high-speed rail line was apparently unfounded. It began when a caller phone a bomb threat into police. Train service was suspended and the bomb squad called in. They found a package, but it turned out to be nothing more than an empty oxygen canister. The rail line in question carries trains between Paris and London. U.N. workers are pulling out of the town in Kosovo as the sectarian violence there burns on. The bloodshed in Mitrovica is the worst since the 1999 Kosovo war. Today, mobs of ethnical Albanians, most of them Muslim, torched a Serbian Orthodox Church and dozens of home. So far, the violence has claimed more than 30 lives and it's prompted NATO to send additional forces to back up the 18,000 troops already on the ground. On to our "Moneyline Roundup," which begins tonight with Dennis Kozlowski. Jurors now hold the fate of the former Tyco CEO in their hands. They got the case this afternoon. Along with his former chief financial officer, Mr. Kozlowski is charged with 32 counts of larceny, falsifying records and other violations. In dollars and cents, he and his co-defendant are accused of looting Tyco to the tune of some $600 million. Bumpy flying for United Airlines' parent company. Sources say UAL may emerge from bankruptcy later than expected. It planned to have its financial house in order by the end of June, but the company faces a lawsuit from one of its unions and has yet to hear from the government on a $1.6 billion loan guarantee. Either or both could keep UAL scrambling well into the summer. And markets today kept traders busy buying and selling all day, stocks riding a roller coaster, but finishing the day on the downside. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, Aaron returns with his exclusive interview with Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf.
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BROWN: Geography can be destiny.And, right now, President Musharraf of Pakistan is trying to overcome considerable obstacles to change the destiny, if you will, of his own country. This is a most interesting man, a military man who took power in a bloodless coup in '99. He's tough. He's smart. And he's a man who has survived two assassination attempts in just the recent months. So he has a bit of luck on his side as well. When we came here to talk to him, we suspected he would make some news on the war on terror and perhaps some news as well on the country's sale of nuclear technology to rogue states around the world. We didn't imagine that he would make the kind of news that has reverberated not just in the United States and here in Pakistan, but across Europe and Asia as well. Here's the interview with President Musharraf.
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BROWN: This is not some small firefight. This is heavy weaponry that is being brought to bear.
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. But the resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery. I spoke with the corps commander just now. The net is there. They are there. They see very strong, dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. And they are mud forts. And all these forts are occupied, and they are dug in. And they are giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high-value target there.
BROWN: When you talk about high-value targets, you know how Americans are going to hear that. We're talking about the top one or two al Qaeda leaders, bin Laden.
MUSHARRAF: Zawahri.
BROWN: You think they're there?
MUSHARRAF: Now, I'm not going to say that, because my previous experience is, whatever I say, then headlines come that he says Zawahri is there or some other -- I can't. It will just be a guess. But we -- I think it's very likely there's a high-value target. Who, I don't know.
BROWN: Is it the intensity of the fighting that makes you believe that?
MUSHARRAF: Yes. Yes, absolutely, the intensity of the fighting and the strength there. They are very strong. They are dug in and they are -- they have taken up dug-in positions. It's a pitched battle.
BROWN: This is a part of the country that, until very recently, was very difficult for the government to assert any control over. So just so our viewers understand the significance of this, you have made a judgment that that can no longer be, that the central government of Pakistan needs to control, in some respects, the entire country of Pakistan?
MUSHARRAF: And this decision, we took actually almost two years back, that we must move into this area of the tribal area. We call it the FATA area, federally administered tribal area, the seven tribal agencies.Nobody went into this area. They were living, I would say, in the Middle Ages. We -- actually, we politically addressed the issue with the tribal elders. And we told them we must -- you must allow us to come in. And they cooperated. For the first time, the army has moved in. So we are in all the tribal agencies. We are doing a lot of reconstruction activity. The army is doing it. And also the government, the civil administration is doing it. I think the reconstruction site is going on very well. And they are being welcomed by the locals. But the south Waziristan is the troubled area. I spoke to all these tribal elders myself just three days back. I was in Peshawar. And we got all the tribal maliks, we call them. There are about 600, 700 of them. They came from all the agencies, including south Waziristan. And they wear the big, very big turbans then. I really motivated them. And I told them, you have to -- this is not in Pakistan's interest. And all of them spoken that they had been looking after Pakistan's interests always. They have been very loyal people. But they are very militant. Each one of them carry weapons. It's a very strange kind of land.
BROWN: I wonder if you worry or think about that the United States government wants you, whether it is in this area or dealing with some of the schooling, the education issues in the country, in a lot of areas, that the United States is impatient, that the United States wants you to do too much faster than realistically politically you can do.
MUSHARRAF: One shouldn't see -- think that this developing country of Pakistan is as developed as any other country, that you pass in order, it's implemented in letter and spirit. That is not -- so you have to find a method of implementing what you -- your policy is. So we have formulated a strategy. That is easier. That is the easier part. But implementing the strategy is very difficult. So we are doing whatever we are. And we understand it's in our interests. What Americans need to understand is, we're not doing it for you. We're doing it for ourselves. It's in our own interests. So why would we drag our feet? Why would I not do it? All Pakistanis, any intellectual, any educated person understands, yes, this is the course that, in madrassas, we must teach them subjects, so that these boys, instead of -- when they grow up, instead of being just mullahs in a mosque, they should -- why can't somebody join the military or the civil service or become a doctor or an engineer or be a banker? That is only when they take the subject and take the board examinations. And that is what we are putting them on to. They're coming on board. And I'm very sure they'll come on board.
BROWN: The truth is that probably most Americans and the American government wouldn't care, except for this, that they see these schools as the incubators for the terrorists of tomorrow.
MUSHARRAF: No, this is not true in its entirety. Let it not be -- I would like to clarify this perception. If they think that every madrassa of Pakistan is teaching extremism, that's not the case. So let's take it easy. We are going step by step. We are taking the people who are on board, religious people on board, and changing their attitudes. I'm sure we'll be able to do it. We'll handle it our way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It is good to remember that Pakistan is also a nuclear country. And the father of its nuclear industry, Dr. A.Q. Khan, is a national hero here. It turns out he was also somewhat of an entrepreneur, selling nuclear secrets, nuclear technology to rogue countries around the world. This has just started to come out. And we talked to President Musharraf about that. And that is part of part two of the interview after the break. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Are you embarrassed at the revelations of how the country's nuclear industry, among the most sensitive subjects, I think, in the world today, spread its knowledge to some dangerous states? And are you concerned that there is a perception that the military, of which you were intimately involved, must have participated or must have known?
MUSHARRAF: No, I'm extremely embarrassed, first of all. I think that, certainly, we're extremely embarrassed that our national hero is involved in proliferation. It's most embarrassing. On the other side, when you talk of the military, it does cause concern. But I am very sure, I'm extremely positive that neither the military, nor the government was involved. It's these individuals who carried it out. And I've explained, we have carried out our investigation.
BROWN: How long do you think it will take to make what is really a fundamental change in Pakistani life?
MUSHARRAF: I think, certainly, five or 10 years is certainly the period. It will be doable in this time, because, together, with this, all this is related to poverty and lack of education also. So, we -- the economy has to go -- do well. We have to create jobs for the people, reduce poverty. That is what we are doing, as our economic strategy is based on a revival of the economy and poverty alleviation. And we are trying to improve the education. We are trying to introduce this new education system into the madrassas. So I'm sure this is doable within this time frame of five or 10 years. And all the economic mega projects that we've launched are all focused towards addressing the -- giving a boost to the economy and also poverty alleviation. So I'm sure, within this time, if we manage to get rid of the al Qaeda, which I'm very sure we will be able to, and this, we should be able to do this year, or maximum, next year in -- from Pakistan, there shall be no al Qaeda.
BROWN: The importance in historical terms of where your country is now, which way it goes, whether the forces of moderation prevail, what it means to the lives of the people of Pakistan and beyond Pakistan, how important a moment do you find yourself and your country in?
MUSHARRAF: Oh, I think we are at a crossroads. I keep saying everywhere I think this country's destiny is at a crossroads. If we can manage ourselves well, we are -- our future is extremely bright, because this country has a role to play in the Muslim world. It is one of the most important Muslim countries. It has a role, very critical role, in this region, because this country, geographically, is the link between Central Asia republics, South Asia and West Asia. If Central Asia is looking down south towards the sea and the world, they need Pakistan to go there. If South Asia or India has to interact with Afghanistan and Central Asia, they need Pakistan. If they want to get gas from Turkmenistan, they need Pakistan. If India wants gas from Iran or Qatar, they need Pakistan. We are at the center. And we must understand the value of our -- the strategic value of our location. So we have a role to play in this whole region. We have to put our house in order. And this country has all the potential. We have the human potential, as well as resources. But we haven't been putting our act together, unfortunately. Now we have. Our economy is on the rise. All indicators are positive. All macroeconomics indicators are positive. And we are on the rise now, if only we can deal with these issues. And I call them four very critical issues, one, world perception that everything in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan, everything in Kashmir is happening from Pakistan, all nuclear proliferation has been done by Pakistan, and that we are an extremist, militant, intolerant society. We have to deal with all these four. And we are dealing with them. We are negotiating with India. We are tackling al Qaeda. We are -- we have tackled the nuclear issue, hopefully, although I know there are people who keep casting aspersions. And then we have to tackle this issue of extremism and finish it from here. And we have a bright future. I am very confident we have a bright future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I'm from the school of journalism that says, if your mother tells you she loves you, check it out. And the problem with our top story, the hunt for al-Zawahri, is, we can't check it out. We can't show you the pictures. So we're skeptical, but we're also optimists. We hope the Pakistani government and army has him surrounded. And we hope that they get him. He deserves to be got, if you will. And we're still young enough to keep our fingers crossed. That's our report for tonight. Good night for all of us in Islamabad for NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.comPentagon Downplays Possible Top al Qaeda Capture; Violence In Iraq Escalates Approaching Anniversary>
Aired March 18, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone or good morning.It's about 8:00 in the morning now in Islamabad. Twenty-four hours ago we stood on this rooftop and said events have a way of trumping plans. The plan was to be on an airplane heading home. The event in this case was an interview we conducted about 12 hours ago with the Pakistani President Musharraf and what he said in that interview, the first indication that Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two al Qaeda leader, was in the sights, perhaps in the grasp of the Pakistani army.Should they get this man it will not be an end to the global war on terror but it will be a measure of justice for the 3,000 people who died on 9/11, a measure of justice for the hundreds of people al Qaeda operatives have killed at his direction and in his planning. That is our headline the hunt for al-Zawahiri that is going on in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan tonight.Other headlines in the whip and we begin from the Pentagon with CNN's Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today Pentagon officials were attempting to inject a dose of cold reality into the speculation that the Pakistani military might be closing in on bin Laden's number two, suggesting that the intelligence is unclear at this time who exactly is in that area surrounded by the Pakistani troops.
BROWN: Jamie, we would second that.To the White House next, and CNN's Suzanne Malveaux who has the watch, Suzanne a headline from you.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, this certainly could be the break that the administration has been hoping for to turn the tide away from criticism that the war was a mistake but the outcome of this search is far from certain.
BROWN: Suzanne, thank you.And finally, in the whip tonight on approaching now the anniversary of the beginning of the war with Iraq and at the end of a bloody week there CNN's Walter Rodgers, Walter a headline tonight.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. The threshold for violence in Iraq appears to be increasing daily this as Americans prepare to mark the first year anniversary of their lightning quick victory in Iraq, having said that, also increasing a tendency on the part of Iraqis to blame Americans for all their woes -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you.And one more headline from us. You'll hear the interview that is being talked about around the world tonight, the interview we conducted 12 hours ago with Pakistani President Musharraf, his thoughts on the war on terror, his thoughts about this hunt going on now for al-Zawahiri and the sale of nuclear material and nuclear technology that his country engaged in to rogue nations around the world, all that and more in the hour ahead.But we begin, as you know we must, with what might very well be a critical moment, at least a psychologically critical moment in the global war on terror. Up in the mountains in some of the most inhospitable terrain you can imagine, inhospitable squared to be honest, there is a fight going on.It has been going on for several days now. Casualties have been taken. Prisoners have been taken and there is a sense that this is a critical battle because in the center of it may be a high-ranking al Qaeda operative Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two man in the al Qaeda organization.The first indications, the formal indications that we had that this might be going on came in our interview with President Musharraf. This is the part of the conversation that is being talked about tonight in all corners of the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: The resistance that is being offered by the people there we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who but they are giving fierce battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we've pounded them with artillery.I spoke to the corps commander just now. I knew you were going to ask me this question so I thought I should be current on it. The net is there. We are there. They see very strong dug-in positions. The had -- the houses actually there are almost forts. They are mud forts and all these forts are occupied and they are dug in and they have been giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high value target there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We'll hear much more from President Musharraf later in this program but there is more to talk about on this aspect of the interview and on this aspect of the story. As we said, there's a very fierce fight going on between these well-trained and highly motivated al Qaeda fighters and a very sophisticated and in many cases American trained Pakistani army. This fight is being watched very closely and perhaps even literally by officials at the Pentagon so let's start there and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): After days of fierce fighting, Pakistan's military thinks it might be closing in on Ayman al-Zawahiri but lacking any independent intelligence indicating al-Zawahiri is in the area surrounded by Pakistani troops, the Pentagon is downplaying the idea his capture is imminent or that getting him or Osama bin Laden will break al Qaeda.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It would be an important step but it would not end the terror. It's not going to end with their capture.
MCINTYRE: U.S. officials say the operation in Pakistan's southern Waziristan province is a Pakistani military operation with no U.S. combat troops involved but the U.S. does have a significant troop presence right across the border in Afghanistan, including U.S. Special Forces teams whose specific mission is to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his number two.And the U.S. is flying unmanned spy planes equipped with night vision thermal cameras along the border searching for al Qaeda fighters who may attempt to escape into Afghanistan. It's all part of a U.S. military spring offense code named Operation Mountain Storm.With Pakistan forces exerting unprecedented military pressure in the largely ungoverned tribal areas and some tribes helping too, the U.S. is hoping to catch bin Laden or his lieutenants in a pincer move, a classic hammer and anvil strategy but the U.S. is well aware of how difficult it can be to pin down a single individual in the rugged mountain terrain.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They know the terrain. They know the escape routes and if it's not sealed perfectly, if the discipline of the Pakistani troops is not pursued throughout the night, there's a good chance that someone could get away.
MCINTYRE: In December of 2001, it's believed Osama bin Laden slipped past U.S. troops and local Afghan fighters who thought they had him trapped in Tora Bora, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Stay with us.Also with us now in Islamabad is our bureau chief here, Ash-har Quraishi and Ash-har let me start with you. When you listen to the interview with President Musharraf he says I'm not going to put any specific names on it. It's a high value target, so why do we believe that it might be al-Zawahiri?
ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN ISLAMABAD BUREAU CHIEF: Well, it's not just the strength or the intensity of the fighting that we're seeing at this point, the resistance from these al Qaeda fighters. We also have information from intelligence sources and military sources who were involved in this operation that indicate that they do have intelligence on the ground.As you'll remember, this operation beginning earlier in the week and they did take into custody some al Qaeda fighters and they say that they've been interrogating these suspects and from some of the information they've gotten from them the indication is that al- Zawahiri is within this compound and is with these 200 al Qaeda fighters.So, it's information that they're getting from the arrests they've already made that is helping them to believe that al-Zawahiri himself is also holed up with these fighters.
BROWN: Jamie, at your end publicly it's understandable how the Pentagon is playing this and, as we said earlier, we second that. It's hard to know precisely what's going on up there. Privately, in the halls of the building, is there a sense that something major is afoot?
MCINTYRE: Well, I have to say that the hallway sense here was that the story was way ahead of itself. They have so much experience here with close calls with almost getting somebody and then it not happening that they were very concerned about the rising expectation. Plus, the U.S. doesn't have any intelligence of its own. You know they do have those high tech surveillance equipment but as was just pointed out the best intelligence comes from people on the ground and they have to take the Pakistani military's word for it that they have some good reason to believe that al-Zawahiri is there. So, there's a lot of downplaying of expectation here because they're just not sure what they're dealing with.
BROWN: Do you know much about the kind of weaponry that the United States has provided to the Pakistani army and the degree to which that weaponry might be effective in dealing with this matter?
MCINTYRE: Well, I mean not really. The Pakistani army is pretty well equipped and they have -- they do have higher tech communications equipment. There are a small number of U.S. advisers as well. You know the Pakistani government isn't inviting or allowing the U.S. military to operate across the border but there's a small number of military personnel serving in an advisory and liaison capacity providing intelligence, helping with communication, even providing some advice, less than about a dozen or so. So, the Pakistani military is pretty well equipped to deal with this, it just sort of remains to be seen how they're able to employ that equipment.
BROWN: OK. Let's bring into this now Ryan Chilcote who is in Afghanistan. Ryan, on your side of the border are you hearing -- I'm sure you're hearing some hope. What else are you hearing?
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hope and expectation. That really describes the position of the U.S. military and the government of Afghanistan. They would like to see the government of Pakistan, the Pakistani paramilitary there in the tribal areas keep that pressure up militarily on al Qaeda and Taliban that they believe are hiding out there.And the hope is, Aaron, that even if those Pakistani paramilitaries are not able to either capture or kill al Qaeda or Taliban in that area that at a minimum they will be able to push them out and that those fighters will run to the west into Afghanistan. That is, of course, where the U.S. military is conducting its own operation, if you will, in tandem with the Pakistanis.The U.S. military operation is called Mountain Storm. Two soldiers just within the last 24 hours killed in that operation. Basically you have U.S. soldiers working together with soldiers from the Afghan National Army. That's the army here that the United States is training, patrolling that border, looking for any fighters that might come through those mountain passes, those mountain passes of course opening up now. The snow is thawing and so they're ready. In fact, Colin Powell before he left for Pakistan said that if any of those fighters come over the border, the U.S. military will be ready for them here.Now, of course, they could go north or south but the thought is that they would come here to the west because quite frankly the people on the border in Afghanistan identify more with the people just over the border there in Pakistan tribally and ethnically and maybe even in terms of nationhood more than they do with their own government here in Afghanistan -- Aaron.BROWN: Ryan, thank you. Jamie, thank you. And, Ash-har here in Islamabad, thank you. You've done terrific work today. Thank you very much.
QURAISHI: Thank you.
BROWN: All of this, as you can imagine, is being watched very closely, very carefully at the White House. The president is scheduled on the anniversary of the war with Iraq to make a speech today on progress in the war in Iraq and progress in the war on terror.And too, if it were to turn out at least and al-Zawahiri was captured, that would be a great top to an important speech, particularly given that we are at the beginning of what looks to be a very fierce political campaign, so to the White House next and CNN's Suzanne Malveaux
.(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Upon President Bush's return from a visit with U.S. troops, reporters shouted if he knew whether al Qaeda's number two had indeed been captured.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not know anything new.
MALVEAUX: Administration officials say it's much too early to know but if Ayman al-Zawahiri was captured on the eve of the one year anniversary of the U.S. war with Iraq it would be a tremendous coup.
DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: You can't underestimate the importance of his operation or the role that he plays in the operation when you start to characterize the level of fish. Some people like to call them big fish. He's definitely a whale.
MALVEAUX: But White House officials were also very careful to play down expectations.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It would, of course, be a major step forward in the war on terrorism because he's obviously an extremely important figure but I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting one al Qaeda leader is going to break up the organization.
MALVEAUX: That's the position officials have used to minimize the significance of Osama bin Laden's unknown whereabouts.
RICE: We've always said that even with Osama bin Laden, who we'd all like to see brought to justice that that will not be the end of al Qaeda. They have local leadership. They have other national leadership.
(END VIDEOTAPE)MALVEAUX: And the White House is trying to avoid the worst possible scenario. That is expectations of a big catch and then a possible let down -- Aaron.
BROWN: Suzanne, thank you, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House and it's a good point to underscore here. This is something that is very much in motion and it's not clear at all how it's going to end or even if every element at this point is precisely correct that it is, in fact, al-Zawahiri who is in their sights.Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight we'll have more on the man that many believe is the brains behind al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri.And later more of our interview with President Musharraf of Pakistan, a man caught in the middle between the United States and al Qaeda, between moderation and extremism.From Pakistan this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If the face of al Qaeda belongs to Osama bin Laden, if he is the inspiration and the financier if you will, then it is said that the brains of the operation belong to Ayman al-Zawahiri.He is a man who could have gone in a very dramatically different direction with his life, a man born of privilege in Egyptian society, a man who was trained as a doctor, could have spent his life saving lives.He ran up against a fork in the road and went in a different direction, a direction that has clearly led to the deaths of thousands of people. Here's the biography of the man at the center of all of this reporting today from CNN's Jonathan Mann.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ayman al-Zawahiri first met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan during the late '80s.
AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI: Working with Brother bin Laden. We know him since more than ten years. We have fought with him here in Afghanistan. We are working with him in Sudan and many other places.MANN: Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden went public with their terrorist alliance in May of that year. The two men issued a fatwah, a declaration, declaring war on them and told Muslims that it was their duty to kill Americans anywhere they found them.A few weeks later, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked by suicide bombers driving trucks. Ayman al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden would both be indicted charged with masterminding those attacks. U.S. government sources believe that Ayman al-Zawahiri was a key player in the attacks on Washington and New York. Since September 11th, Ayman al-Zawahiri raised his public profile appearing at bin Laden's side in several videos.
AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people you must ask yourselves why all this hate against America?
MANN: He issued this audio tape in October, 2002 threatening new attacks against the west.
AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): America and its deputies should know that their crimes will not go unpunished. We advise them to make a hasty retreat from Palestine, the Arabian Gulf, Afghanistan and the rest of the Muslim states before they lose everything.
MANN: A series of audio messages followed and these pictures of al-Zawahiri and bin Laden released on the second anniversary of 9/11, actual date unknown.
AL-ZAWAHIRI: We want to say to the whole world who are we.MANN: It has been almost two decades since Ayman al-Zawahiri said he wanted the whole world to hear his message. The world heard.Jonathan Mann, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We're joined now from Washington by Daniel Benjamin. Dan is a senior fellow of strategic and international studies and the author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." It's good to have him. And in Islamabad with us here on the rooftop Ken Robinson, who works national security issues with us and has a detailed resume in such matters.But, Dan, let me start with you. If al-Zawahiri's capture or death, if that's where we are and that's what this leads to, doesn't end the war on terror, and no one believes it will, what is its significance?
DANIEL BANJAMIN, CO-AUTHOR, "THE AGE OF SACRED TERROR": Well, it's certainly significant in bringing closer to an end at least the chapter of the war on terrorism that was primarily about al Qaeda because he was right at the heart of it. He brought an enormous amount of know-how and he really formulated the ideology that now motivates so many jihadist terrorists around the world. The most important thing is it will be a big symbol. It will show America is determined and it will show that there's nowhere to hide.
BROWN: So it is a psychological victory as much as anything?
BENJAMIN: Oh, absolutely. At this point, I think Ayman al- Zawahiri and bin Laden have been largely out of the loop in terms of the practical planning and organization of terrorist activity. They may have issued general guidelines and incited followers to act but in many ways they've been surpassed now by other groups, other networks such as the one of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who has become quite famous lately, groups in many different countries. So, the actual impact in the war on terror will be limited but it will -- there will be a big symbolic benefit.
BROWN: All right, let me turn to Ken. Ken, the Pakistani Army is no third world army. It's a pretty sophisticated group but they are facing some well-trained, well motivated guys out there somewhere behind us and it is essentially for the army an away game, if you will.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's not just an away game, it's a pick-up away game very quickly. What they sent in first was a militia and that militia was aggressively hurt by 18 guys, first string, al Qaeda trained folks, 200 of them.And then they had to regroup and bring in Special Operations forces and bring in regular army corps and now they've regrouped again and planned another assault. They're facing a very aggressive enemy in an area where they've never been in the last 30 years.
BROWN: You were sitting in the room with us 12 hours ago when we talked with President Musharraf and you'll recall that he described that first day of the fight, he said we were careless in how we went after them.
ROBINSON: Not only were they careless but they didn't anticipate the enemy's ability to plan for defenses. This enemy had target reference points which were registrations for mortar rounds which enabled them to cover all the high speed avenues of approach, the road intersections and they hurt them significantly as they approached and they realized that they were facing something new and different.
BROWN: Dan, on this side of the border, on the Pakistani side of the border is there much the U.S. military, much the Pentagon can do in support of the Pakistanis?
BENJAMIN: Well, I think there are a number of different overhead surveillance intelligence assets that can be deployed to help the Pakistanis. There may be some other kinds of technical collection that can be done.Of course there's also the possibility of air power being brought to bear if the Pakistanis themselves don't have it. I mean we do have -- we do have air power in the region but I think a lot of this is, you know, in a closed box that's beyond us right now. It's very hard to guess what's going on in there.
BROWN: And, Ken, just on the subject of what the intelligence can provide, if these guys, there's some speculation they might have, tried to get out of the net, break out of this circle that they were in could the intelligence have spotted that in the dead of night?
ROBINSON: Yes, they could. They have thermal imaging. They have moving target indicators from systems that can be platforms flying overhead and they can be relaying that information in real time to the Pakistanis.
BROWN: Ken, thank you. Dan, thanks as well. We appreciate both of you with us today.Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight from Pakistan, we'll go back to Iraq, a war that continues on this first anniversary, another car bombing yesterday. We take a break first.From Islamabad and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Almost a year now since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Iraq in many ways has been transformed, some in big ways, some in small. We ought never lose sight of the progress that has been made there. We saw it when we were there earlier in the week but it's also impossible to ignore the enormity of the problems that remain and principally among them is the security problem.Almost 700 people have died in suicide bombings in Iraq in the last year. At least three, at least three died in the south of the country in a suicide bombing in Basra today. In Baghdad itself, the search is officially over for the victims of yesterday's horrible car bombing there. The search is over but the search for answers has hardly begun.Here's CNN's Walter Rodgers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS (voice-over): An Iraqi woman surveys her lost world destroyed by a murderous car bomb the previous night in Baghdad. A local Baghdad TV station had a camera rolling Wednesday when the bomb was triggered. Twelve hours later what was once a quite Baghdad neighborhood was still smoldering, acrid smoke hanging over this city of five million.Lieutenant Colonel Mark Coate surveying the bomb crater imagined what it would have been like to have been at Ground Zero when the 1,000 pounds of explosives went off rocking the foundations of buildings half a mile away.LT.
COL. MARK COATE, U.S. ARMY: It's a great deal of heat. The blast effects are enormous. Anybody within probably 50 to 80 yards would have felt the blast effects to the point where it would have incapacitated them if not killed them.
RODGERS: "We only felt a big boom, just like a rocket. Whoosh. And we were hit. My sister started screaming," this man said. The next morning, Iraqis were asking, why? Why? There is no concentration of Americans or British in this neighborhood. An American general in Baghdad blamed Islamist militants, saying they're trying to thwart coalition efforts to build a civil society here, but the Arab street is not buying that. "When America came, it was supposed to protect us, wasn't it? Such a big Army. Is it here to protect us or only itself?" Abu Yasub (ph) asked. In the southeastern Iraqi city of Basra, a day later, another explosion, conflicting reports about whether it was a car bomb or a roadside bomb detonated when a British military convoy passed. All the fatalities were Iraqi civilians. In Fallujah, in the volatile Sunni Triangle, it looked to many like the U.S. military occupation was coming unraveled, after a clash between gun-toting Iraqis and American soldiers resulted in one boy, a Muslim sheik and perhaps others being killed. The Americans were blamed, although they claimed they were fired upon first and some witnesses confirmed that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS: It's a given among U.S. officials here that violence in Iraq will increase over the coming weeks and months. And looming above all that now is the specter that the United States is now locked into a long-term guerrilla war with Islamist militants in this part of the world -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, is it your sense and is it the military's sense that the violence we've seen over the last week is connected to, related to the anniversary of the war?
RODGERS: I think that's the case. It's increasingly becoming more so. And I think the day you have to be most careful here in Baghdad and Iraq will be Sunday the 21st, because that's when the Iraqis will remember the time the Americans first invaded this country. It's going to be a very, very risky, tense weekend -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, stay safe. Thank you, Walter Rodgers, back in Baghdad. We'll take a break here. Wolf Blitzer joins us from New York with the day's other stories. Later in the program, our interview with Pakistani President Musharraf, the interview that made news.Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer in New York with some of the other stories making news around the country and the world. First stop Spain, where police have arrested five more suspects in connection with the bombings last week in Madrid. One suspect is Spanish. The other four are Arab. Meantime, the number of people killed in the bombings today reached 202. Just north of Paris, the bomb scare along a high-speed rail line was apparently unfounded. It began when a caller phone a bomb threat into police. Train service was suspended and the bomb squad called in. They found a package, but it turned out to be nothing more than an empty oxygen canister. The rail line in question carries trains between Paris and London. U.N. workers are pulling out of the town in Kosovo as the sectarian violence there burns on. The bloodshed in Mitrovica is the worst since the 1999 Kosovo war. Today, mobs of ethnical Albanians, most of them Muslim, torched a Serbian Orthodox Church and dozens of home. So far, the violence has claimed more than 30 lives and it's prompted NATO to send additional forces to back up the 18,000 troops already on the ground. On to our "Moneyline Roundup," which begins tonight with Dennis Kozlowski. Jurors now hold the fate of the former Tyco CEO in their hands. They got the case this afternoon. Along with his former chief financial officer, Mr. Kozlowski is charged with 32 counts of larceny, falsifying records and other violations. In dollars and cents, he and his co-defendant are accused of looting Tyco to the tune of some $600 million. Bumpy flying for United Airlines' parent company. Sources say UAL may emerge from bankruptcy later than expected. It planned to have its financial house in order by the end of June, but the company faces a lawsuit from one of its unions and has yet to hear from the government on a $1.6 billion loan guarantee. Either or both could keep UAL scrambling well into the summer. And markets today kept traders busy buying and selling all day, stocks riding a roller coaster, but finishing the day on the downside. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, Aaron returns with his exclusive interview with Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Geography can be destiny.And, right now, President Musharraf of Pakistan is trying to overcome considerable obstacles to change the destiny, if you will, of his own country. This is a most interesting man, a military man who took power in a bloodless coup in '99. He's tough. He's smart. And he's a man who has survived two assassination attempts in just the recent months. So he has a bit of luck on his side as well. When we came here to talk to him, we suspected he would make some news on the war on terror and perhaps some news as well on the country's sale of nuclear technology to rogue states around the world. We didn't imagine that he would make the kind of news that has reverberated not just in the United States and here in Pakistan, but across Europe and Asia as well. Here's the interview with President Musharraf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: This is not some small firefight. This is heavy weaponry that is being brought to bear.
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. But the resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery. I spoke with the corps commander just now. The net is there. They are there. They see very strong, dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. And they are mud forts. And all these forts are occupied, and they are dug in. And they are giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high-value target there.
BROWN: When you talk about high-value targets, you know how Americans are going to hear that. We're talking about the top one or two al Qaeda leaders, bin Laden.
MUSHARRAF: Zawahri.
BROWN: You think they're there?
MUSHARRAF: Now, I'm not going to say that, because my previous experience is, whatever I say, then headlines come that he says Zawahri is there or some other -- I can't. It will just be a guess. But we -- I think it's very likely there's a high-value target. Who, I don't know.
BROWN: Is it the intensity of the fighting that makes you believe that?
MUSHARRAF: Yes. Yes, absolutely, the intensity of the fighting and the strength there. They are very strong. They are dug in and they are -- they have taken up dug-in positions. It's a pitched battle.
BROWN: This is a part of the country that, until very recently, was very difficult for the government to assert any control over. So just so our viewers understand the significance of this, you have made a judgment that that can no longer be, that the central government of Pakistan needs to control, in some respects, the entire country of Pakistan?
MUSHARRAF: And this decision, we took actually almost two years back, that we must move into this area of the tribal area. We call it the FATA area, federally administered tribal area, the seven tribal agencies.Nobody went into this area. They were living, I would say, in the Middle Ages. We -- actually, we politically addressed the issue with the tribal elders. And we told them we must -- you must allow us to come in. And they cooperated. For the first time, the army has moved in. So we are in all the tribal agencies. We are doing a lot of reconstruction activity. The army is doing it. And also the government, the civil administration is doing it. I think the reconstruction site is going on very well. And they are being welcomed by the locals. But the south Waziristan is the troubled area. I spoke to all these tribal elders myself just three days back. I was in Peshawar. And we got all the tribal maliks, we call them. There are about 600, 700 of them. They came from all the agencies, including south Waziristan. And they wear the big, very big turbans then. I really motivated them. And I told them, you have to -- this is not in Pakistan's interest. And all of them spoken that they had been looking after Pakistan's interests always. They have been very loyal people. But they are very militant. Each one of them carry weapons. It's a very strange kind of land.
BROWN: I wonder if you worry or think about that the United States government wants you, whether it is in this area or dealing with some of the schooling, the education issues in the country, in a lot of areas, that the United States is impatient, that the United States wants you to do too much faster than realistically politically you can do.
MUSHARRAF: One shouldn't see -- think that this developing country of Pakistan is as developed as any other country, that you pass in order, it's implemented in letter and spirit. That is not -- so you have to find a method of implementing what you -- your policy is. So we have formulated a strategy. That is easier. That is the easier part. But implementing the strategy is very difficult. So we are doing whatever we are. And we understand it's in our interests. What Americans need to understand is, we're not doing it for you. We're doing it for ourselves. It's in our own interests. So why would we drag our feet? Why would I not do it? All Pakistanis, any intellectual, any educated person understands, yes, this is the course that, in madrassas, we must teach them subjects, so that these boys, instead of -- when they grow up, instead of being just mullahs in a mosque, they should -- why can't somebody join the military or the civil service or become a doctor or an engineer or be a banker? That is only when they take the subject and take the board examinations. And that is what we are putting them on to. They're coming on board. And I'm very sure they'll come on board.
BROWN: The truth is that probably most Americans and the American government wouldn't care, except for this, that they see these schools as the incubators for the terrorists of tomorrow.
MUSHARRAF: No, this is not true in its entirety. Let it not be -- I would like to clarify this perception. If they think that every madrassa of Pakistan is teaching extremism, that's not the case. So let's take it easy. We are going step by step. We are taking the people who are on board, religious people on board, and changing their attitudes. I'm sure we'll be able to do it. We'll handle it our way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It is good to remember that Pakistan is also a nuclear country. And the father of its nuclear industry, Dr. A.Q. Khan, is a national hero here. It turns out he was also somewhat of an entrepreneur, selling nuclear secrets, nuclear technology to rogue countries around the world. This has just started to come out. And we talked to President Musharraf about that. And that is part of part two of the interview after the break. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Are you embarrassed at the revelations of how the country's nuclear industry, among the most sensitive subjects, I think, in the world today, spread its knowledge to some dangerous states? And are you concerned that there is a perception that the military, of which you were intimately involved, must have participated or must have known?
MUSHARRAF: No, I'm extremely embarrassed, first of all. I think that, certainly, we're extremely embarrassed that our national hero is involved in proliferation. It's most embarrassing. On the other side, when you talk of the military, it does cause concern. But I am very sure, I'm extremely positive that neither the military, nor the government was involved. It's these individuals who carried it out. And I've explained, we have carried out our investigation.
BROWN: How long do you think it will take to make what is really a fundamental change in Pakistani life?
MUSHARRAF: I think, certainly, five or 10 years is certainly the period. It will be doable in this time, because, together, with this, all this is related to poverty and lack of education also. So, we -- the economy has to go -- do well. We have to create jobs for the people, reduce poverty. That is what we are doing, as our economic strategy is based on a revival of the economy and poverty alleviation. And we are trying to improve the education. We are trying to introduce this new education system into the madrassas. So I'm sure this is doable within this time frame of five or 10 years. And all the economic mega projects that we've launched are all focused towards addressing the -- giving a boost to the economy and also poverty alleviation. So I'm sure, within this time, if we manage to get rid of the al Qaeda, which I'm very sure we will be able to, and this, we should be able to do this year, or maximum, next year in -- from Pakistan, there shall be no al Qaeda.
BROWN: The importance in historical terms of where your country is now, which way it goes, whether the forces of moderation prevail, what it means to the lives of the people of Pakistan and beyond Pakistan, how important a moment do you find yourself and your country in?
MUSHARRAF: Oh, I think we are at a crossroads. I keep saying everywhere I think this country's destiny is at a crossroads. If we can manage ourselves well, we are -- our future is extremely bright, because this country has a role to play in the Muslim world. It is one of the most important Muslim countries. It has a role, very critical role, in this region, because this country, geographically, is the link between Central Asia republics, South Asia and West Asia. If Central Asia is looking down south towards the sea and the world, they need Pakistan to go there. If South Asia or India has to interact with Afghanistan and Central Asia, they need Pakistan. If they want to get gas from Turkmenistan, they need Pakistan. If India wants gas from Iran or Qatar, they need Pakistan. We are at the center. And we must understand the value of our -- the strategic value of our location. So we have a role to play in this whole region. We have to put our house in order. And this country has all the potential. We have the human potential, as well as resources. But we haven't been putting our act together, unfortunately. Now we have. Our economy is on the rise. All indicators are positive. All macroeconomics indicators are positive. And we are on the rise now, if only we can deal with these issues. And I call them four very critical issues, one, world perception that everything in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan, everything in Kashmir is happening from Pakistan, all nuclear proliferation has been done by Pakistan, and that we are an extremist, militant, intolerant society. We have to deal with all these four. And we are dealing with them. We are negotiating with India. We are tackling al Qaeda. We are -- we have tackled the nuclear issue, hopefully, although I know there are people who keep casting aspersions. And then we have to tackle this issue of extremism and finish it from here. And we have a bright future. I am very confident we have a bright future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I'm from the school of journalism that says, if your mother tells you she loves you, check it out. And the problem with our top story, the hunt for al-Zawahri, is, we can't check it out. We can't show you the pictures. So we're skeptical, but we're also optimists. We hope the Pakistani government and army has him surrounded. And we hope that they get him. He deserves to be got, if you will. And we're still young enough to keep our fingers crossed. That's our report for tonight. Good night for all of us in Islamabad for NEWSNIGHT.
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