Martha Stewart Meets With Parole Officer. Bush, Kerry Trade Punches Early
Aired March 8, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.So, I was hanging out with some friends over the last few days and the subject of greed came up. It came up in the context of a book by a once famous golfer taking a shot at a once and still famous golfer accusing him of cheating back in 1958."Why would he do that," one friend asked? "Well, he's trying to sell a book," I responded. "But he has a ton of money," said another friend at the table to which I replied, "I've never met anyone who thought they had too much money," which, of course, leads us straight to Martha Stewart.She was worth tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars, more money than you could ever spend if all you did was spend money, yet to save a few thousand dollars, $50,000 or so, chump change to her, she broke the law and lied about it and now she's headed for jail. Her company is headed for trouble and greed finds its way front and center again.Martha Stewart's day tops the whip tonight and the program, CNN's Allan Chernoff with the story, Allan's headline.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martha Stewart will leave the board of directors of her own company, the only question to be resolved whether she'll resign or simply not run for reelection -- Aaron.BROWN: Allan.On to presidential politics and proof that politics (unintelligible) especially with the polls so tight, CNN's Candy Crowley with the headline tonight.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Looking for an upbeat positive visionary kind of thing, a kinder, gentler 2004 campaign? Forget about it. It's only March and it's already getting brutal out here.BROWN: Candy, thank you.In Baghdad the beginning of politics, a hard fought constitution. We expected the headline on Friday. It comes to us tonight. Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.
JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: It was delayed by suicide bombs and political disagreements but Iraq's political leaders finally got together to implement that first step towards democracy, a draft constitution -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you.And finally back home and a story that might have been told by Edgar Allan Poe but is told for us by CNN's Frank Buckley out west, Frank a headline.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it was the telltale heart that led authorities to a criminal in the classic Edgar Allen Poe's short story. In this case, it was the alleged buying and selling of body parts that led authorities to arrest two men, including the director of UCLA's willed body program. Tonight he faces a charge of grand theft -- Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.Also coming up on the program tonight, details just released this evening on a medical procedure that may offer hope to women cancer patients who want to preserve their chances of having children. This is an important development.And later, fresh off the free range and maybe even a golf course, the rooster drops in with a check of your morning papers for Tuesday, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin with Martha Stewart who has made a fortune some would say a fetish, out of doing things just so. Today, she took her first few steps into a place with new rules to live by, not "Martha Stewart Living," if you will, but from now on Martha Stewart's life. In a moment, questions about how she got there, did her lawyers botch the case? Is she hurting herself now, hurting her chances for leniency? But first, the news of the day reported by CNN's Allan Chernoff
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CHERNOFF (voice-over): As Martha Stewart left her meeting with a parole officer she made her first public statement as a convicted felon. Stewart's fall from grace is accelerating.
PAUL CALLAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She's being told to produce documents relating to her birth, her divorce, her tax history, her civil lawsuits. It's also possible that they took a urine sample from her today to determine whether she's a drug user.
CHERNOFF: The probation office will use the information for a pre-sentencing report to Judge Miriam Cederbaum who will determine Stewart's jail time. Many attorneys are predicting close to a year in prison with little chance of a successful appeal.
SETH TAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: People don't realize the appeal cannot second guess the facts. You have to find a judge error and this was a very good experienced judge.CHERNOFF: Stewart will leave the board of directors of her company, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, though after meeting today the board has yet to determine whether Stewart will resign or simply not run for reelection according to a person with knowledge of the board's activities. Stewart hopes to remain involved with the creative side of the business. Ms. Stewart is stepping down at the director of Revlon after seven and one half years on the board of the cosmetics company. Viacom confirmed it had canceled Stewart's television show from its CBS and UPN stations. And Wall Street's confidence of the company continues sagging as well. The stock fell another nine percent Monday.Allan Chernoff, CNN Financial News, New York.
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BROWN: Just to save about $50,000.School children learn it. Cable anchors repeat it. "Court TV" anchors repeat it frequently. The burden of proof falls entirely on the state. That means the defense is under no obligation to give evidence, even call a witness if it believes the state has not made its case, which isn't the same as saying it's necessarily a good idea or there's not a degree of gamesmanship involved. Our vision is 20/20 in hindsight. We're joined tonight by Robert Tarver, a pretty fair defense attorney himself, and we'd like to thank for coming on the program. We're glad to see you.
ROBERT TARVER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to be here.
BROWN: All right it is -- I mean hindsight -- there is a wonderful clarity about hindsight and you hear the jurors' comments and the jurors all, or at least those who are talking, seem to suggest they weren't terribly impressed with the way Mr. Morvillo presented himself, presented the case.Set that aside for a second. Do you think he did a fair job for his client, an honorable job for his client, an effective job for his client given the facts he had to work with?
TARVER: Yes, two things. We really don't know the full story of what he had to work with. We don't know what Martha Stewart might have been on the stand. He may have seen something that said, you know what, she can't go anywhere near a witness stand. He may also have seen something that said we can't put these witnesses on. But the bottom line is, as you said before, while there's no burden of proof on the part of the defense there is an expectation that they are going to be able to meet and rebut the items that came out. Now there were some really strong items that came out on the part of the prosecution.
BROWN: Do you think that expectation is greater when the defendant is a celebrity?
TARVER: I think it is. I think, number one, everyone knew who Martha Stewart was and we knew that in the voir dire. But the big problem is that the defense allowed the prosecution to shape Martha Stewart.Now they heard about who she was but the prosecution really through the evidence they put forward suggested that Martha Stewart was nasty. They suggested that she was curt. They suggested that she was abusive through all of the testimony that came out through the various witnesses. Now the bottom line is that the defense in not putting on other witnesses allowed that to be the picture of Martha Stewart.
BROWN: So, what do you put a witness on the stand that says she's not imperious, she's not this, she's really very kind?
TARVER: Well, I...
BROWN: Someone who knows absolutely nothing about whether she lied to investigators.
TARVER: Yes. Yes. What you do is you actually end up shaping the picture of the event and shaping the picture of the event also entails shaping a picture of Martha Stewart.There are other friends that she has that I'm sure could have said good things about her. There are other workers who could have talked about the relationship between her and this worker. There are a number of different things that could have happened to broaden the spectrum of who Martha Stewart was.
BROWN: To me, I mean it's hard in this case to set Mr. Faneuil aside because he is the central witness but you bring in her friend to talk about their trip and where she talks about getting the tip. You bring in her personal assistant. You bring in people close to her and I think that's a very damaging thing for a defendant.
TARVER: Yes, it was devastating very, very devastating. The bottom line is you get this quantum of proof type of situation where when you got the cumulative effect of people coming from different directions. Everyone knew where Faneuil was coming from.
BROWN: Right.
TARVER: He's the prosecution's witness but you have her friend, you have her secretary and, at some point, people say, wait a minute. You've got people coming from directions east, west, north and south. They don't have anything together. They don't have any common motive. They must be telling the truth. Now the defense never took the offensive to be able to deal with those witnesses.
BROWN: As a defense lawyer, is your first instinct not to put the defendant on the stand?
TARVER: It depends on the defendant. It depends on the circumstances. Number one, you have a defendant who has no prior record per se. She can take the stand without there being an inference that she's a bad person because of the record.But the second question also is the facts and people were afraid in her defense camp to put her on the stand because they knew that the facts were not in her favor that she was going to be cross-examined.But you know what, sometimes you have to go ahead and let the person get up there and make their own personal case. It could be that Martha Stewart's celebrity in and of itself could have swayed a nullification verdict.
BROWN: Five seconds. Do lawyers in these moments second guess themselves?
TARVER: All the time.
BROWN: They do?
TARVER: All the time from the moment the jury goes out.
BROWN: Yes. Nice to see you, thanks for coming in.
TARVER: Good to see you too, Aaron.
BROWN: More now on what lies ahead for Ms. Stewart and how her experience compares with that of other white collar criminals. We're joined from Columbus Ohio by Karen Bond, a former attorney who served time in federal prison for securities fraud. She's now a spokesperson for a prisoner advocacy group.And, in Irvine, California, Henry Pontell, who teaches criminology at U.C. Irvine. He is also the author of "Profit Without Honor, White Collar Crime and the Looting of America." It gives you a sense where he's coming from here. Welcome to you both. Professor, let me start with you. I'm going to ask this, I'm going to say should she go to jail? I don't mean will she go to jail because I think the law is pretty clear that she is going to jail but should someone do time for this sort of offense?
HENRY PONTELL, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY, LAW AND SOCIETY, U.C. IRVINE: Well, the sentencing guidelines are pretty clear in this case and I think to frame that question you have to ask, well, it if wasn't Martha Stewart would someone else who did the same thing be going to jail? And the answer would be yes. So, while I have nothing personally against Martha Stewart, I think that she's going to be serving time unless something miraculous happens at this point.
BROWN: OK. Let me try it differently. Why send someone like Martha Stewart to jail?
PONTELL: Well, the prosecutors seem to think that by sending her to prison they're going to be sending a message that it doesn't matter if you're Martha Stewart of John Q. Public. If you lie to investigators in a federal case, it is a crime and that they will prosecute you. So, I think that's part of the issue right there.I think we also have a slightly different, more than a slightly different, a very different attitude when it comes to sentencing of people in high status positions and I think that, you know, by virtue of the fact that it's Martha Stewart really should make no difference. We're not sentencing her because she's Martha Stewart.
BROWN: Sure.
PONTELL: I think the government took the case and it was resolved the way it has been resolved because of what she did.BROWN: Ms. Bond, do you think you were sent to prison as an example or sent to prison because of the crime or both?
KAREN BOND, FORMER FEDERAL PRISONER: I think it was a combination of both in my case, very much so.
BROWN: And what was it like walking in there that first day?
BOND: It was terrifying. You know it's a very terrifying, humiliating experience to walk through the prison gate, hear it clang behind you, be strip searched, have everything you have with you taken from you. It's humiliating.
BROWN: And we talked some about the kinds of prisons that white collar criminals get sent to, Club Feds and they're really not that terrible. Did you end up at a Club Fed? Was it really not that terrible?
BOND: There are no Club Feds in the federal prison system. That's entirely a media myth. There are no white collar prisons either. There are low custody federal prison camps but only about five percent of the population is white collar. The remainder is mainly drug offenses.
BROWN: How long did it take you to, if this is the right word, acclimate?
BOND: You don't acclimate to a prison environment. It isn't possible and, if you do acclimate, then you're in danger. If you're not aware of your surroundings at all times, you very much risk your safety and your mental stability actually.
BROWN: Were you worried about your safety?
BOND: Yes, I was and, in fact, about 24 months into my sentence I was assault by a prisoner, shoulder fractured, concussion. It's not a safe environment. It is not a golf course, play tennis type of environment with masseuses and room service.
BROWN: Professor, the state has -- the state, the federal government in this case has a responsibility to keep Ms. Stewart safe after they send her to jail. Does that mean that someone like her has to be kept in virtual isolation?
PONTELL: It may be. I think that decision will be made at the time she's incarcerated. I should also mention that I think according to the federal guidelines that she won't be spending all of her time, assuming she does spend time, in a federal prison that I think -- I believe half of her sentence can be served in a halfway house, which is much different than serving time in a federal prison.
BOND: That used to be the case but it's not the case now. She'll only be able to spend ten percent of her sentence in a halfway house.
BROWN: So, maybe a month or so of a ten-month sentence?
BOND: That's right, the law -- the interpretation by the Department of Justice changed recently as to the halfway house policy.
BROWN: I know and honestly I don't mean this at all flip, OK, but do you -- were you always aware, Ms. Bond, of how many days left you had with the, you know, clock ticking in your mind every day?
BOND: No, because I never let myself think about it. I'm afraid that if I had started counting the days, it would have been so overwhelming that I couldn't have coped with it.
BROWN: How long were you in prison?
BOND: My sentence was 38 months and out of that I served a little over 34, 53 days a year off for good time behavior.
BROWN: This is probably a truly stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway because I do that sometimes. But if you had to give her some advice, what would the advice be right now?
BOND: Treasure these moments with your family. Hold them close and when you get to prison please keep your mouth shut and pretend that you are just an ordinary person.
BROWN: And, professor, at this point in Ms. Stewart's life, if you had to give her some advice what would the advice be?
PONTELL: To try not to say too much at this point because the probation part will be prepared now and her sentencing.
BROWN: Is it too late to be contrite?
PONTELL: That's a very good question given how far she's gone at this point. It may be but given that her friend Sam Waksal first claimed innocence and then later apologized for his behavior might be a precedent here. So maybe there is time for her to come clean but it may not be possible.
BROWN: It can't hurt though.
PONTELL: Can't hurt.
BROWN: Thank you, nice to meet you all. Thank you very much.
PONTELL: Thank you.
BROWN: Still ahead on the program tonight, politics, gloves off already, the president and his Democratic opponent coming out swinging. It seems early for that but they sure were today.And later tonight, Segment 7, an interesting medical development that could bring hope to cancer patients who hope one day to be parents. I haven't said this for a while. From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: It's going to be a long campaign and, if the early salvos are any indication, it will be as John McCain predicted the other day a nasty campaign as well.Today, both the president and Senator John Kerry traded shots, more body blows than knockout punches and while we continue to caution you on reading too much into polls, at this stage of the game a new CNN-USA Today Gallup poll shows Senator Kerry with a six point lead, if Ralph Nader is in the race.There are lots of reasons not to read too much into that. It's very early. The Democrats have had the stage for months. The president has barely started spending his millions and millions of dollars, so lots of reasons to be cautious but on both Iraq and the economy, the president appears to have some problems.Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
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CROWLEY (voice-over): The president went to a rodeo in Texas Monday, which was enough for John Kerry to ride.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That if the president of the United States can find the time to go to a rodeo he can find the time to do more than one hour in front of a commission that is investigating what happened to America's intelligence and why we are not stronger today.
CROWLEY: Count on this to be the election year of the endless cycle where no statement goes unanswered and no response goes un- responded to.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two years after the attack on the World Trade Center my opponent introduced a bill to cut the overall intelligence budget by $1.5 billion. His bill was so deeply irresponsible that he didn't have a single co-sponsor in the United States Senate.
CROWLEY: Anyone looking for a mild springtime on the campaign trail can look again. John Kerry told a group of donors that foreign leaders he met with told him they want Bush defeated. A Bush official called that remark outside the boundaries.The storylines of the campaign are already set and character development is the first chapter. The president thinks the Senator is a waffling political opportunist with no core values.
BUSH: Senator Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, for NAFTA, for the No Child Left Behind Act and for the use of force in Iraq. Now he opposes the Patriot Act, NAFTA, the No Child Left Behind Act and the liberation of Iraq.
CROWLEY: The Senator thinks the president is a radical ideologue who doesn't know what he's doing.
KERRY: He has run the most arrogant, inept, reckless, ideological foreign policy in the modern history of our country.
CROWLEY: Sometimes you wonder what they'll be saying about each other by October.Candy Crowley CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.
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BROWN: A few other stories making news today, Haiti first. U.S. Marines today claimed responsibility for killing a gunman who opened fire yesterday on protesters and an anti-Aristide march. It's the first known gunfire by U.S. Marines since they arrived in Haiti a week ago. Hospital officials and the Red Cross say at least nine other people were killed in Sunday's violence. At least 59 were hurt.John Henry Williams, the 35-year-old son of Boston Red Sox legend Ted Williams, lost his battle against leukemia. He died at UCLA Medical Center over the weekend. Mr. Williams, the son, created controversy after his father's death in July of '02 when he had the hall-of-famer's body sent to an Arizona lab to be frozen.The body discovered yesterday in Manhattan's East River has now been identified as Spalding Gray. The 62-year-old actor/writer disappeared almost two months ago. Mr. Gray had attempted suicide several times in recent years, suffered from depression. The cause of his death, though, is still technically at least under investigation.Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a new day in Baghdad but as an interim constitution is signed women take to the streets to say their rights had been overlooked. We take a break first.This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
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BROWN: In Iraq today, they signed a constitution a few days late and nothing for the ages perhaps. It is provisional, temporary. It's not especially loved by all of the parties to it.But it's hard to look at it as anything but good news and, after a weekend to think about it, it was good enough for all of them to sign or good enough for now at least, which in a winner-take-all part of the world ain't too shabby.Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.
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ARRAF (voice-over): Like proud parents, the U.S. administrator and British special representative watched the ceremony unfold. First, the children meant to grow up in democracy rather than dictatorship.There was a prayer for the dead, including the hundreds of Shias, Kurds and other Iraqis killed in attacks unleashed since the end of the war, and a document for the living.U.S.-appointed Governing Council members after delays, disagreements and false starts bridged their differences. With a special flourish, all signed their names and took their places in history. The signing took place against a backdrop of continuing attacks."Painful forces," the current head of the Governing Council said, "trying to stop Iraq's political process. They forget that the will of the people is more powerful than their plans" he said.The law entrenches a federal system, a demand by Iraqi Kurds who want to retain the power they have."This is the first time we Kurds feel we are citizens equal to everybody," said Masoud Barzani. He heads one of two Kurdish factions controlling northern Iraq.But not everyone felt so included. Outside the convention center, a group of Yazidis, an ancient sect that worries it's on the verge of disappearing, protested that they weren't represented.(on camera): Signing the constitution is a major accomplishment but it's perhaps a first step. Around this table of the Governing Council there's a lot of hard work that will still have to be done.(voice-over): Not everyone believes it can be done, creating a democratic Iraq but for a country with a history ridden in blood this document was an occasion to celebrate.
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ARRAF: And these laws call for full elections to be held no later than the end of next January with a referendum on a full constitution in October. But there's an awful lot of work before that, including when the U.S. hands over power to the Iraqi government in June, this June, what kind of government they'll be handing power back to -- Aaron.
BROWN: When they have these elections what is it they're electing? Is there -- is this going to be a parliamentary system? Is there going to be a president? What is it going to be?
ARRAF: There's going to be a president and two deputies and there will be some sort of parliamentary system. Now one of the interesting things that this constitution does is it's basically a framework. It sets forward a vision for Iraq, what this country is envisioned to look like and what that will look like is a federalist system, which has been part of what all the fuss has been about.It would envision the Kurds retaining some control of their three provinces in the north and the ability for other ethnic groups, other populations in the country to set up states. It's going to, if it works Aaron, it will be an amazing thing, a country with very diverse ethnic religious groups working together in a federalist system united by a presidency and a council but still retaining quite a lot of their own powers.
BROWN: It will be quite remarkable. Jane, thank you. It's good to see you and we'll see you soon.The interim document will be the law of the land until, as Jane said...presidency and a council, but still retaining quite a lot of their own powers.
BROWN: It will be quite remarkable. Jane, thank you. It's good to see you. And we'll see you soon.The interim document will be the law of the land until, as Jane said, a permanent constitution is drafted and a new Iraqi leadership is elected. It is a beginning, but certainly not the last word and the final shape of democracy in Iraq. One of the great questions, one of the difficult questions facing the country is the role that Islam will play, the separation of mosque and state, if you will. And for the country's women, who had a measure of equality in the days of Saddam, the answer remains in doubt. Here's CNN's Ben Wedeman.
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BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq question women march for their rights. For many, the concept has been reduced to the minimum they want, jobs, houses, and help."If a woman lost her husband, has no income, is destitute, is she not oppressed?" asked Fali al-Abdel Hassan. While the women demonstrated, across town in the Green Zone, the coalition-appointed Iraqi Governing Council was finally signing the interim constitution. Many of the council members represent Islamic parties. (on camera): Laws have been on the books here since 1959 granting Iraqi women more rights than most in the Middle East. But those rights are now under threat from conservative Islamic forces. (voice-over): Feminists Yanar Mohammed, wears a bulletproof vest after receiving death threats from Muslim fundamentalists. She says the U.S.-led coalition backs those opposed to women's rights.
YANAR MOHAMMED, ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN'S FREEDOM IN IRAQ: We see an occupation that is supporting -- they say -- they call it modern Islam. For women, that is nothing moderate about it. If one man is equal to four women, nothing is moderate about it. They have supported these reactionary groups. They do not want to listen to the voice of women.
WEDEMAN: To hear from the other half, we visited a coffee shop, an unassailable bastion for Iraqi men for all ages. There's not a sign on the door barring women, but it's an unwritten rule. It's a sort of place you might expect to be crawling with male chauvinists, but not so. "Who kept the country going through all the wars?" asks lawyer Ali Khalid (ph). "It was the women.""It makes no difference if the president is a woman," says merchant Naime Hazelaji (ph), "as long as they're good for the country." Maybe the next generation of Iraqi women does have something to look forward to after all. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.
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BROWN: The road to today's signing ceremony was not an easy one. Many people contributed along the way in different ways. Noah Feldman was one of them. He help advise the Iraqi Governing Council on drafting their constitution. He teaches at New York University, is also the author of "After Jihad." And he joins us tonight from Washington. It's nice to see you. Is there a danger, either now or after the Americans leave, whenever that is, that Iraq becomes a theocracy?
NOAH FELDMAN, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: The danger is always there, because there's no guarantee that the Islamic parties that are participating right now in the government will stick to their words. What we do know is that, in order to gain support in the population, the Islamists are staying and Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the senior cleric in the country, is saying that he wants democracy. In fact, democracy has been his main watch word. And once he said that and once his followers have said it, it will be difficult for them to turn on a dime and suddenly walk away from the democratic principles.
BROWN: Well, there's lots of ways I guess you could define democracy. And I'll give you one. If I have got 60 percent of the vote, I win. And the Ayatollah Sistani has 60 percent of the vote, presumably.
FELDMAN: Well, he has got some chunk of it, for sure, and Shia make up around 60 percent. You're right.
(CROSSTALK)
FELDMAN: Part of the debate we saw in the last couple of days that democracy really has two components. One is the majority rules and the other is minorities have to be protected. And here, we actually saw a conflict where Ayatollah Sistani said, I don't like the fact that for final ratification of the final constitution, a minority might have a veto power. And then Shia leaders said went to him and they said, look, we need to keep the Kurds on board. And they decided to split the difference. Ayatollah Sistani said, OK, sign it. And then the minute it was signed, he said, well, in the long run, we would really like to change this. So that's a tension that's inherent in democracy. And Iraqis will have to deal it, just like everyone else in every other democracy.
BROWN: Just a quick question. I want to move on from this. Does the Governing Council have credibility across the country?
FELDMAN: It has credibility with the Shia. It has credibility with the Kurds. It does not have the same degree of credibility with ordinary Sunnis, because there are Sunnis on the Governing Council. But they are not people who closely affiliated with those who are sympathetic to the insurgency, certainly, or even probably to the ordinary Sunni. They're sort of notables from families inside -- traditionally powerful families inside of Baghdad. So it remains to be seen whether that all-important group, the Sunni Arabs, will have buy in this constitution.
BROWN: In the constitutional sense, what hasn't been done that needs to be done? What often happens in tough negotiations is, you set some things aside and say, well, we'll get to those later.
FELDMAN: Absolutely. Deferral is a great strategy when you're trying to meet a deadline. And, in general, in constitutions, it is pretty useful. So the status of Kirkuk, which is an oil-rich city that is claimed both by Kurds and by Turkoman and by some Sunni Arabs, remains undetermined. Exactly how much federalism the Kurds in the north will have remains undetermined.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: And when you say federalism, what you really mean is how much autonomy they will have, right?
FELDMAN: I think that's right. I think that's right. This constitution sets up asymmetric federalism. The Kurds have more autonomy right now than the other parts of the country do and probably will retain that. For example, they have 50,000 men at arms and they're more or less retaining control over those, even though, theoretically, those troops will belong to a National Guard that will be responsible to a central government
.BROWN: Do you think that there's a danger still of civil war?
FELDMAN: It's real. It's still with us. I think that we've moved one step further away from it, but if the bombings on religious Shia sites continue and if Shia who have been patient very far run out of patience and decide to take revenge against at least some Sunni, then there really could be a situation of Sunni-Shia violence. And the Kurds will then walk away from it and say, a plague on both your houses. We're just declaring independence. I don't think that's a likely outcome, but it definitely could happen.
BROWN: I said before we were on the air, it's a good day, not a perfect day. Do you remember how you responded?
FELDMAN: Well, I said, better than the alternatives, right?
BROWN: And it was a perfect day, it wouldn't be real.
FELDMAN: Right. That's right. If it were a perfect day, it wouldn't be real. If everyone agreed and they all smiled and there was no disagreement, you would know it was a setup. And that's exactly what the Middle East doesn't need and what Iraq doesn't need. We need the real thing, not a show trial, not a show government.
BROWN: Professor, it must have been a fascinating process, a little piece of history. Thanks. Good to talk to you again.
FELDMAN: Likewise.
BROWN: Thank you, Noah Feldman. Still to come on the program tonight, trafficking in human body parts. Oh, my, the uproar at UCLA over the misuse of donated organs. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: Yikes. Did you read the first one? Scientists often say -- this is an unintended segue, by the way -- scientists often say they stand on the shoulders of giants, the giants being those that broke the ground on which new advances are built. Science and medicine also depend on the goodwill of ordinary people, people who donate their bodies to benefit others. UCLA's medical school, like many others, receives over 100 bodies each year. They're supposed to be used for education and research. That's certain what the donors and their families expect.To sell the bodies for profit is certainly not part of the deal. But that is the charge at UCLA. Two arrests have been made. More could come. Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.
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FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The alleged sales of body parts were from cadavers donated to UCLA's Willed Body Program for medical education and research. Officials now believe some body parts were illegally sold for profit.
GERALD S. LEVEY, VICE CHANCELLOR, UCLA SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: These alleged crimes violate the trust of the donors, their families, and UCLA. We are deeply sorry.
BUCKLEY: Arrested in the case, Henry Reid, UCLA's Willed Body Program director, on suspicion of grand theft, and Earnest Nelson, an alleged middleman, who according to UCLA officials, sold the parts to research firms. Both men allegedly profited from the scheme.
LEVEY: We have no indication that the anatomical specimens involved in this case were used for anything other than medical research.
BUCKLEY: But that's little comfort to Shirley Williams and others, whose loved ones donated their bodies to UCLA. Ms. Williams' husband, Richard, died two years after ago a stroke. His body went to UCLA with the promise it would be returned after scientists could examine it. Instead, she said, she was told that her husband's body had been cremated, the ashes already scattered. After hearing about the current investigation at UCLA, Williams and her attorney filed a class-action lawsuit against the university.
SHIRLEY WILLIAMS, WIDOW OF BODY DONOR: It may not be murder but it's -- it's devastating and that person that has to hear those words, you know, you just feel like you're being kicked in the stomach.
BUCKLEY: CNN couldn't reach Reid or Nelson for comment. But Nelson did tell "The Los Angeles Times" that he removed parts from approximately 800 cadavers over a six-year period following a protocol provided by Reid. "I follow that protocol and they charge me with receiving stolen body parts?" he said. Human tissue is used in everything from surgical products to medical instrument training. Institutions like UCLA can reallocate body parts to research firms for nominal fees, but profiting is prohibited.
PROF. MICHAEL SHAPIRO, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: We don't want to reduce persons and the representatives of persons, their body parts, to mere commodities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY: UCLA officials say they believe that Nelson's claim of 800 cadavers being involved is an exaggeration. But they concede, Aaron, they just don't know how many bodies are involved, because the records for the program are now in the hands of investigators -- Aaron.
BROWN: And what is the crime?
BUCKLEY: Well, in this case, they're very simple crimes. They stole something and the other guy received something...
BROWN: Got it.
BUCKLEY: ... that was stolen.
BROWN: So it's theft?
BUCKLEY: Yes, it's grand theft and receiving stolen property.
BROWN: My goodness. Thank you, Frank -- Frank Buckley out in L.A. tonight. "Moneyline Roundup" now and the fate of Disney's CEO Michael Eisner. My, he's made a lot of news of late, hasn't he? According to "The Financial Times," Disney's board of directors of Disney will meet next month to discuss plans of a possible successor, this as the big cable operator Comcast said it's unlikely to sweeten its about $60 billion offer to buy out Disney. A new study gives a boost to what's already a Blockbuster pill. It shows that patients taking high doses of the cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor suffered from significantly lower rates of heart attack and stroke compared to other patients on similar, but less potent medicines. Said one doctor involved in the two-year study, "This is really a big deal." Shares of Pfizer, which makes Lipitor, were up a bunch today. It did OK in after-hours trading, as well. The rest of the market, unfortunately, was sort of nasty. Intel dragged down the Dow and the Nasdaq a bit, not a very pleasant day to start the week. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a new medical procedure that could offer women with cancer the opportunity to preserve their ability to have a child. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's one of the bitter truths about cancer. You can survive the disease, but the treatment that saves you can do irreversible damage, like making you infertile. For women, that's especially grim because of the limits of science, but those limits may be bending. An experimental technique which freezes and transplants ovarian tissue has taken a step forward, not a final step, but a good and important one. The results appear in today's edition of the medical journal "The Lansing."Here's CNN's Holly Firfer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLLY FIRFER, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer, he knew that radiation and chemotherapy would leave him sterile. So he froze his sperm so that he and his ten wife could have a family some day. Eight years later, he's a father to three healthy children. Women and young girls don't have that clear option. Treatment for cancer and other diseases can leave them infertile. Dr. Kutluk Oktay is pioneering an experimental procedure to help women preserve the dream of becoming mothers. DR.
KUTLUK OKTAY, WEILL MEDICAL COLLEGE: And many of these patients actually told me that it made them more upset to find out that they won't be able to have babies than they may die of Their cancer. This in effect helps them cope better with the cancer.
FIRFER: Dr. Oktay removed part of a 30-year-old breast cancer patient's ovary and preserved it cryogenically. Six years later, it was removed from the liquid nitrogen and implanted just below the skin on her abdomen. The ovary began to make eggs, which were harvested and fertilized. One egg split into four cells and this embryo was implanted into the women's uterus. Although the women's pregnancy was not successful, doctors say the fact that her ovarian function was restored just menopause reversed gives them great hope.
DR. JOE MASSEY, INFERTILITY SPECIALIST: The research has been slow up to this point. I think it's encouraging. We think it will go much faster now.
FIRFER: Some express concern that the potential for reintroducing cancerous tissue into the body still exists and warn, even if a viable pregnancy results, the child will need meticulous follow-up to ensure he or she is healthy. But Dr. Oktay says this is an important first step.
OKTAY: If our goal is to go to the moon, we're orbiting the moon now and now we're looking for the right spot to land.
FIRFER: But for many women who successfully beat cancer, reversing menopause and regaining the possibility to have children will be nothing short of a miracle. Holly Firfer, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, after a brief absence, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. We'll start with "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times" in France. There's three good stories on the front page of the -- well, perhaps they're all good, but I like these three. The interim council -- the Iraqi council, which is an interim council, signs the interim charter. We told you about that. Down at the bottom, though, some of the complications all of this can be seen in Afghanistan. "In Afghanistan, Agony As Escape. Women Fleeing Cruel Lives Choose Even Crueler Deaths." It's a horrible -- it's a wonderfully written story by Carlotta Gall about how little life has changed for women in the post-Taliban era outside of the major cities. Inside the major cities, things are a little bit better. Anyway, it's a very good piece. It was in today's The New York Times." And, finally, some Dutch advice to U.S. on gay marriages. "Go Slowly," an interesting story, because that whole issue seems to be moving at warp speed in this country.
"The Washington Times" leads with the Iraqi constitution. Just a kind of interesting headline to me. And, again, "The Washington Times" is the more conservative of the two papers in Washington. "Bush Chides Kerry On Intelligence Cuts, Paints Senator as a Flip- Flopper." I guess there's a couple of ways you might have led that story or headlined that story.
"The Atlanta-Journal Constitution" starts with the constitution." "Iraqis Sign Constitution." Down at the bottom, "Kerry's Views Underscore Split in Religious Vote," a political story there. We're down to a minute.Here's good news, by the way. People say we don't do enough good news.
"The Boston Herald" supplies some. "Drunken Surgeon Busted." That to me good news, though I know none of the details. That's
"The Boston Herald" this morning.How we doing on time, Terry (ph)? Thirty-seven seconds. Here's good news, too. You know, people say we don't do enough good news, but
"The Detroit News." "The Big Three Reliability Gets a Lift." So I guess those cars aren't breaking down like you used to think they did, but they were never that bad. But you know what I mean.OK, finally,
"The Chicago Sun-Times," because we always end on that. Quickly down here, "Juanita Jordan Selling Real Estate." That's Michael Jordan's wife, is a realtor in Highland Park. Remember, I began the program by saying, you can never have too much money? That's the proof of it. "Very familiar" is the weather in Chicago.We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Before we go tonight, another look at our top story. Martha Stewart meeting today with a federal probation officer, step one in the sentencing process which concludes in June, presumably. The board of Martha Stewart Omnimedia also met today. Sources say MSNBC Stewart will either resign from the board or not stand for reelection. Meantime, CBS and UPN have dumped her TV show, "Martha Stewart Living," from their schedules. Tomorrow on this program, a town with history running through it, year-round sunshine and, yes, it could be all yours, for the right price. Huh. Before we go, Soledad O'Brien with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," John Kerry's Swiss education. The future senator and presidential candidate was only 11 years old when he was passed off to an exclusive school in Switzerland. We'll see how that shaped the man we see today, CNN tomorrow 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Thank you, Ms. O'Brien.We'll see all of you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. For most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.Good night for all of us.Trade Punches Early>
Aired March 8, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.So, I was hanging out with some friends over the last few days and the subject of greed came up. It came up in the context of a book by a once famous golfer taking a shot at a once and still famous golfer accusing him of cheating back in 1958."Why would he do that," one friend asked? "Well, he's trying to sell a book," I responded. "But he has a ton of money," said another friend at the table to which I replied, "I've never met anyone who thought they had too much money," which, of course, leads us straight to Martha Stewart.She was worth tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars, more money than you could ever spend if all you did was spend money, yet to save a few thousand dollars, $50,000 or so, chump change to her, she broke the law and lied about it and now she's headed for jail. Her company is headed for trouble and greed finds its way front and center again.Martha Stewart's day tops the whip tonight and the program, CNN's Allan Chernoff with the story, Allan's headline.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martha Stewart will leave the board of directors of her own company, the only question to be resolved whether she'll resign or simply not run for reelection -- Aaron.BROWN: Allan.On to presidential politics and proof that politics (unintelligible) especially with the polls so tight, CNN's Candy Crowley with the headline tonight.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Looking for an upbeat positive visionary kind of thing, a kinder, gentler 2004 campaign? Forget about it. It's only March and it's already getting brutal out here.BROWN: Candy, thank you.In Baghdad the beginning of politics, a hard fought constitution. We expected the headline on Friday. It comes to us tonight. Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.
JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: It was delayed by suicide bombs and political disagreements but Iraq's political leaders finally got together to implement that first step towards democracy, a draft constitution -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you.And finally back home and a story that might have been told by Edgar Allan Poe but is told for us by CNN's Frank Buckley out west, Frank a headline.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it was the telltale heart that led authorities to a criminal in the classic Edgar Allen Poe's short story. In this case, it was the alleged buying and selling of body parts that led authorities to arrest two men, including the director of UCLA's willed body program. Tonight he faces a charge of grand theft -- Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.Also coming up on the program tonight, details just released this evening on a medical procedure that may offer hope to women cancer patients who want to preserve their chances of having children. This is an important development.And later, fresh off the free range and maybe even a golf course, the rooster drops in with a check of your morning papers for Tuesday, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin with Martha Stewart who has made a fortune some would say a fetish, out of doing things just so. Today, she took her first few steps into a place with new rules to live by, not "Martha Stewart Living," if you will, but from now on Martha Stewart's life. In a moment, questions about how she got there, did her lawyers botch the case? Is she hurting herself now, hurting her chances for leniency? But first, the news of the day reported by CNN's Allan Chernoff
.(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHERNOFF (voice-over): As Martha Stewart left her meeting with a parole officer she made her first public statement as a convicted felon. Stewart's fall from grace is accelerating.
PAUL CALLAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She's being told to produce documents relating to her birth, her divorce, her tax history, her civil lawsuits. It's also possible that they took a urine sample from her today to determine whether she's a drug user.
CHERNOFF: The probation office will use the information for a pre-sentencing report to Judge Miriam Cederbaum who will determine Stewart's jail time. Many attorneys are predicting close to a year in prison with little chance of a successful appeal.
SETH TAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: People don't realize the appeal cannot second guess the facts. You have to find a judge error and this was a very good experienced judge.CHERNOFF: Stewart will leave the board of directors of her company, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, though after meeting today the board has yet to determine whether Stewart will resign or simply not run for reelection according to a person with knowledge of the board's activities. Stewart hopes to remain involved with the creative side of the business. Ms. Stewart is stepping down at the director of Revlon after seven and one half years on the board of the cosmetics company. Viacom confirmed it had canceled Stewart's television show from its CBS and UPN stations. And Wall Street's confidence of the company continues sagging as well. The stock fell another nine percent Monday.Allan Chernoff, CNN Financial News, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Just to save about $50,000.School children learn it. Cable anchors repeat it. "Court TV" anchors repeat it frequently. The burden of proof falls entirely on the state. That means the defense is under no obligation to give evidence, even call a witness if it believes the state has not made its case, which isn't the same as saying it's necessarily a good idea or there's not a degree of gamesmanship involved. Our vision is 20/20 in hindsight. We're joined tonight by Robert Tarver, a pretty fair defense attorney himself, and we'd like to thank for coming on the program. We're glad to see you.
ROBERT TARVER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to be here.
BROWN: All right it is -- I mean hindsight -- there is a wonderful clarity about hindsight and you hear the jurors' comments and the jurors all, or at least those who are talking, seem to suggest they weren't terribly impressed with the way Mr. Morvillo presented himself, presented the case.Set that aside for a second. Do you think he did a fair job for his client, an honorable job for his client, an effective job for his client given the facts he had to work with?
TARVER: Yes, two things. We really don't know the full story of what he had to work with. We don't know what Martha Stewart might have been on the stand. He may have seen something that said, you know what, she can't go anywhere near a witness stand. He may also have seen something that said we can't put these witnesses on. But the bottom line is, as you said before, while there's no burden of proof on the part of the defense there is an expectation that they are going to be able to meet and rebut the items that came out. Now there were some really strong items that came out on the part of the prosecution.
BROWN: Do you think that expectation is greater when the defendant is a celebrity?
TARVER: I think it is. I think, number one, everyone knew who Martha Stewart was and we knew that in the voir dire. But the big problem is that the defense allowed the prosecution to shape Martha Stewart.Now they heard about who she was but the prosecution really through the evidence they put forward suggested that Martha Stewart was nasty. They suggested that she was curt. They suggested that she was abusive through all of the testimony that came out through the various witnesses. Now the bottom line is that the defense in not putting on other witnesses allowed that to be the picture of Martha Stewart.
BROWN: So, what do you put a witness on the stand that says she's not imperious, she's not this, she's really very kind?
TARVER: Well, I...
BROWN: Someone who knows absolutely nothing about whether she lied to investigators.
TARVER: Yes. Yes. What you do is you actually end up shaping the picture of the event and shaping the picture of the event also entails shaping a picture of Martha Stewart.There are other friends that she has that I'm sure could have said good things about her. There are other workers who could have talked about the relationship between her and this worker. There are a number of different things that could have happened to broaden the spectrum of who Martha Stewart was.
BROWN: To me, I mean it's hard in this case to set Mr. Faneuil aside because he is the central witness but you bring in her friend to talk about their trip and where she talks about getting the tip. You bring in her personal assistant. You bring in people close to her and I think that's a very damaging thing for a defendant.
TARVER: Yes, it was devastating very, very devastating. The bottom line is you get this quantum of proof type of situation where when you got the cumulative effect of people coming from different directions. Everyone knew where Faneuil was coming from.
BROWN: Right.
TARVER: He's the prosecution's witness but you have her friend, you have her secretary and, at some point, people say, wait a minute. You've got people coming from directions east, west, north and south. They don't have anything together. They don't have any common motive. They must be telling the truth. Now the defense never took the offensive to be able to deal with those witnesses.
BROWN: As a defense lawyer, is your first instinct not to put the defendant on the stand?
TARVER: It depends on the defendant. It depends on the circumstances. Number one, you have a defendant who has no prior record per se. She can take the stand without there being an inference that she's a bad person because of the record.But the second question also is the facts and people were afraid in her defense camp to put her on the stand because they knew that the facts were not in her favor that she was going to be cross-examined.But you know what, sometimes you have to go ahead and let the person get up there and make their own personal case. It could be that Martha Stewart's celebrity in and of itself could have swayed a nullification verdict.
BROWN: Five seconds. Do lawyers in these moments second guess themselves?
TARVER: All the time.
BROWN: They do?
TARVER: All the time from the moment the jury goes out.
BROWN: Yes. Nice to see you, thanks for coming in.
TARVER: Good to see you too, Aaron.
BROWN: More now on what lies ahead for Ms. Stewart and how her experience compares with that of other white collar criminals. We're joined from Columbus Ohio by Karen Bond, a former attorney who served time in federal prison for securities fraud. She's now a spokesperson for a prisoner advocacy group.And, in Irvine, California, Henry Pontell, who teaches criminology at U.C. Irvine. He is also the author of "Profit Without Honor, White Collar Crime and the Looting of America." It gives you a sense where he's coming from here. Welcome to you both. Professor, let me start with you. I'm going to ask this, I'm going to say should she go to jail? I don't mean will she go to jail because I think the law is pretty clear that she is going to jail but should someone do time for this sort of offense?
HENRY PONTELL, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY, LAW AND SOCIETY, U.C. IRVINE: Well, the sentencing guidelines are pretty clear in this case and I think to frame that question you have to ask, well, it if wasn't Martha Stewart would someone else who did the same thing be going to jail? And the answer would be yes. So, while I have nothing personally against Martha Stewart, I think that she's going to be serving time unless something miraculous happens at this point.
BROWN: OK. Let me try it differently. Why send someone like Martha Stewart to jail?
PONTELL: Well, the prosecutors seem to think that by sending her to prison they're going to be sending a message that it doesn't matter if you're Martha Stewart of John Q. Public. If you lie to investigators in a federal case, it is a crime and that they will prosecute you. So, I think that's part of the issue right there.I think we also have a slightly different, more than a slightly different, a very different attitude when it comes to sentencing of people in high status positions and I think that, you know, by virtue of the fact that it's Martha Stewart really should make no difference. We're not sentencing her because she's Martha Stewart.
BROWN: Sure.
PONTELL: I think the government took the case and it was resolved the way it has been resolved because of what she did.BROWN: Ms. Bond, do you think you were sent to prison as an example or sent to prison because of the crime or both?
KAREN BOND, FORMER FEDERAL PRISONER: I think it was a combination of both in my case, very much so.
BROWN: And what was it like walking in there that first day?
BOND: It was terrifying. You know it's a very terrifying, humiliating experience to walk through the prison gate, hear it clang behind you, be strip searched, have everything you have with you taken from you. It's humiliating.
BROWN: And we talked some about the kinds of prisons that white collar criminals get sent to, Club Feds and they're really not that terrible. Did you end up at a Club Fed? Was it really not that terrible?
BOND: There are no Club Feds in the federal prison system. That's entirely a media myth. There are no white collar prisons either. There are low custody federal prison camps but only about five percent of the population is white collar. The remainder is mainly drug offenses.
BROWN: How long did it take you to, if this is the right word, acclimate?
BOND: You don't acclimate to a prison environment. It isn't possible and, if you do acclimate, then you're in danger. If you're not aware of your surroundings at all times, you very much risk your safety and your mental stability actually.
BROWN: Were you worried about your safety?
BOND: Yes, I was and, in fact, about 24 months into my sentence I was assault by a prisoner, shoulder fractured, concussion. It's not a safe environment. It is not a golf course, play tennis type of environment with masseuses and room service.
BROWN: Professor, the state has -- the state, the federal government in this case has a responsibility to keep Ms. Stewart safe after they send her to jail. Does that mean that someone like her has to be kept in virtual isolation?
PONTELL: It may be. I think that decision will be made at the time she's incarcerated. I should also mention that I think according to the federal guidelines that she won't be spending all of her time, assuming she does spend time, in a federal prison that I think -- I believe half of her sentence can be served in a halfway house, which is much different than serving time in a federal prison.
BOND: That used to be the case but it's not the case now. She'll only be able to spend ten percent of her sentence in a halfway house.
BROWN: So, maybe a month or so of a ten-month sentence?
BOND: That's right, the law -- the interpretation by the Department of Justice changed recently as to the halfway house policy.
BROWN: I know and honestly I don't mean this at all flip, OK, but do you -- were you always aware, Ms. Bond, of how many days left you had with the, you know, clock ticking in your mind every day?
BOND: No, because I never let myself think about it. I'm afraid that if I had started counting the days, it would have been so overwhelming that I couldn't have coped with it.
BROWN: How long were you in prison?
BOND: My sentence was 38 months and out of that I served a little over 34, 53 days a year off for good time behavior.
BROWN: This is probably a truly stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway because I do that sometimes. But if you had to give her some advice, what would the advice be right now?
BOND: Treasure these moments with your family. Hold them close and when you get to prison please keep your mouth shut and pretend that you are just an ordinary person.
BROWN: And, professor, at this point in Ms. Stewart's life, if you had to give her some advice what would the advice be?
PONTELL: To try not to say too much at this point because the probation part will be prepared now and her sentencing.
BROWN: Is it too late to be contrite?
PONTELL: That's a very good question given how far she's gone at this point. It may be but given that her friend Sam Waksal first claimed innocence and then later apologized for his behavior might be a precedent here. So maybe there is time for her to come clean but it may not be possible.
BROWN: It can't hurt though.
PONTELL: Can't hurt.
BROWN: Thank you, nice to meet you all. Thank you very much.
PONTELL: Thank you.
BROWN: Still ahead on the program tonight, politics, gloves off already, the president and his Democratic opponent coming out swinging. It seems early for that but they sure were today.And later tonight, Segment 7, an interesting medical development that could bring hope to cancer patients who hope one day to be parents. I haven't said this for a while. From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's going to be a long campaign and, if the early salvos are any indication, it will be as John McCain predicted the other day a nasty campaign as well.Today, both the president and Senator John Kerry traded shots, more body blows than knockout punches and while we continue to caution you on reading too much into polls, at this stage of the game a new CNN-USA Today Gallup poll shows Senator Kerry with a six point lead, if Ralph Nader is in the race.There are lots of reasons not to read too much into that. It's very early. The Democrats have had the stage for months. The president has barely started spending his millions and millions of dollars, so lots of reasons to be cautious but on both Iraq and the economy, the president appears to have some problems.Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): The president went to a rodeo in Texas Monday, which was enough for John Kerry to ride.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That if the president of the United States can find the time to go to a rodeo he can find the time to do more than one hour in front of a commission that is investigating what happened to America's intelligence and why we are not stronger today.
CROWLEY: Count on this to be the election year of the endless cycle where no statement goes unanswered and no response goes un- responded to.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two years after the attack on the World Trade Center my opponent introduced a bill to cut the overall intelligence budget by $1.5 billion. His bill was so deeply irresponsible that he didn't have a single co-sponsor in the United States Senate.
CROWLEY: Anyone looking for a mild springtime on the campaign trail can look again. John Kerry told a group of donors that foreign leaders he met with told him they want Bush defeated. A Bush official called that remark outside the boundaries.The storylines of the campaign are already set and character development is the first chapter. The president thinks the Senator is a waffling political opportunist with no core values.
BUSH: Senator Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, for NAFTA, for the No Child Left Behind Act and for the use of force in Iraq. Now he opposes the Patriot Act, NAFTA, the No Child Left Behind Act and the liberation of Iraq.
CROWLEY: The Senator thinks the president is a radical ideologue who doesn't know what he's doing.
KERRY: He has run the most arrogant, inept, reckless, ideological foreign policy in the modern history of our country.
CROWLEY: Sometimes you wonder what they'll be saying about each other by October.Candy Crowley CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A few other stories making news today, Haiti first. U.S. Marines today claimed responsibility for killing a gunman who opened fire yesterday on protesters and an anti-Aristide march. It's the first known gunfire by U.S. Marines since they arrived in Haiti a week ago. Hospital officials and the Red Cross say at least nine other people were killed in Sunday's violence. At least 59 were hurt.John Henry Williams, the 35-year-old son of Boston Red Sox legend Ted Williams, lost his battle against leukemia. He died at UCLA Medical Center over the weekend. Mr. Williams, the son, created controversy after his father's death in July of '02 when he had the hall-of-famer's body sent to an Arizona lab to be frozen.The body discovered yesterday in Manhattan's East River has now been identified as Spalding Gray. The 62-year-old actor/writer disappeared almost two months ago. Mr. Gray had attempted suicide several times in recent years, suffered from depression. The cause of his death, though, is still technically at least under investigation.Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a new day in Baghdad but as an interim constitution is signed women take to the streets to say their rights had been overlooked. We take a break first.This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In Iraq today, they signed a constitution a few days late and nothing for the ages perhaps. It is provisional, temporary. It's not especially loved by all of the parties to it.But it's hard to look at it as anything but good news and, after a weekend to think about it, it was good enough for all of them to sign or good enough for now at least, which in a winner-take-all part of the world ain't too shabby.Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARRAF (voice-over): Like proud parents, the U.S. administrator and British special representative watched the ceremony unfold. First, the children meant to grow up in democracy rather than dictatorship.There was a prayer for the dead, including the hundreds of Shias, Kurds and other Iraqis killed in attacks unleashed since the end of the war, and a document for the living.U.S.-appointed Governing Council members after delays, disagreements and false starts bridged their differences. With a special flourish, all signed their names and took their places in history. The signing took place against a backdrop of continuing attacks."Painful forces," the current head of the Governing Council said, "trying to stop Iraq's political process. They forget that the will of the people is more powerful than their plans" he said.The law entrenches a federal system, a demand by Iraqi Kurds who want to retain the power they have."This is the first time we Kurds feel we are citizens equal to everybody," said Masoud Barzani. He heads one of two Kurdish factions controlling northern Iraq.But not everyone felt so included. Outside the convention center, a group of Yazidis, an ancient sect that worries it's on the verge of disappearing, protested that they weren't represented.(on camera): Signing the constitution is a major accomplishment but it's perhaps a first step. Around this table of the Governing Council there's a lot of hard work that will still have to be done.(voice-over): Not everyone believes it can be done, creating a democratic Iraq but for a country with a history ridden in blood this document was an occasion to celebrate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARRAF: And these laws call for full elections to be held no later than the end of next January with a referendum on a full constitution in October. But there's an awful lot of work before that, including when the U.S. hands over power to the Iraqi government in June, this June, what kind of government they'll be handing power back to -- Aaron.
BROWN: When they have these elections what is it they're electing? Is there -- is this going to be a parliamentary system? Is there going to be a president? What is it going to be?
ARRAF: There's going to be a president and two deputies and there will be some sort of parliamentary system. Now one of the interesting things that this constitution does is it's basically a framework. It sets forward a vision for Iraq, what this country is envisioned to look like and what that will look like is a federalist system, which has been part of what all the fuss has been about.It would envision the Kurds retaining some control of their three provinces in the north and the ability for other ethnic groups, other populations in the country to set up states. It's going to, if it works Aaron, it will be an amazing thing, a country with very diverse ethnic religious groups working together in a federalist system united by a presidency and a council but still retaining quite a lot of their own powers.
BROWN: It will be quite remarkable. Jane, thank you. It's good to see you and we'll see you soon.The interim document will be the law of the land until, as Jane said...presidency and a council, but still retaining quite a lot of their own powers.
BROWN: It will be quite remarkable. Jane, thank you. It's good to see you. And we'll see you soon.The interim document will be the law of the land until, as Jane said, a permanent constitution is drafted and a new Iraqi leadership is elected. It is a beginning, but certainly not the last word and the final shape of democracy in Iraq. One of the great questions, one of the difficult questions facing the country is the role that Islam will play, the separation of mosque and state, if you will. And for the country's women, who had a measure of equality in the days of Saddam, the answer remains in doubt. Here's CNN's Ben Wedeman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq question women march for their rights. For many, the concept has been reduced to the minimum they want, jobs, houses, and help."If a woman lost her husband, has no income, is destitute, is she not oppressed?" asked Fali al-Abdel Hassan. While the women demonstrated, across town in the Green Zone, the coalition-appointed Iraqi Governing Council was finally signing the interim constitution. Many of the council members represent Islamic parties. (on camera): Laws have been on the books here since 1959 granting Iraqi women more rights than most in the Middle East. But those rights are now under threat from conservative Islamic forces. (voice-over): Feminists Yanar Mohammed, wears a bulletproof vest after receiving death threats from Muslim fundamentalists. She says the U.S.-led coalition backs those opposed to women's rights.
YANAR MOHAMMED, ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN'S FREEDOM IN IRAQ: We see an occupation that is supporting -- they say -- they call it modern Islam. For women, that is nothing moderate about it. If one man is equal to four women, nothing is moderate about it. They have supported these reactionary groups. They do not want to listen to the voice of women.
WEDEMAN: To hear from the other half, we visited a coffee shop, an unassailable bastion for Iraqi men for all ages. There's not a sign on the door barring women, but it's an unwritten rule. It's a sort of place you might expect to be crawling with male chauvinists, but not so. "Who kept the country going through all the wars?" asks lawyer Ali Khalid (ph). "It was the women.""It makes no difference if the president is a woman," says merchant Naime Hazelaji (ph), "as long as they're good for the country." Maybe the next generation of Iraqi women does have something to look forward to after all. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The road to today's signing ceremony was not an easy one. Many people contributed along the way in different ways. Noah Feldman was one of them. He help advise the Iraqi Governing Council on drafting their constitution. He teaches at New York University, is also the author of "After Jihad." And he joins us tonight from Washington. It's nice to see you. Is there a danger, either now or after the Americans leave, whenever that is, that Iraq becomes a theocracy?
NOAH FELDMAN, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: The danger is always there, because there's no guarantee that the Islamic parties that are participating right now in the government will stick to their words. What we do know is that, in order to gain support in the population, the Islamists are staying and Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the senior cleric in the country, is saying that he wants democracy. In fact, democracy has been his main watch word. And once he said that and once his followers have said it, it will be difficult for them to turn on a dime and suddenly walk away from the democratic principles.
BROWN: Well, there's lots of ways I guess you could define democracy. And I'll give you one. If I have got 60 percent of the vote, I win. And the Ayatollah Sistani has 60 percent of the vote, presumably.
FELDMAN: Well, he has got some chunk of it, for sure, and Shia make up around 60 percent. You're right.
(CROSSTALK)
FELDMAN: Part of the debate we saw in the last couple of days that democracy really has two components. One is the majority rules and the other is minorities have to be protected. And here, we actually saw a conflict where Ayatollah Sistani said, I don't like the fact that for final ratification of the final constitution, a minority might have a veto power. And then Shia leaders said went to him and they said, look, we need to keep the Kurds on board. And they decided to split the difference. Ayatollah Sistani said, OK, sign it. And then the minute it was signed, he said, well, in the long run, we would really like to change this. So that's a tension that's inherent in democracy. And Iraqis will have to deal it, just like everyone else in every other democracy.
BROWN: Just a quick question. I want to move on from this. Does the Governing Council have credibility across the country?
FELDMAN: It has credibility with the Shia. It has credibility with the Kurds. It does not have the same degree of credibility with ordinary Sunnis, because there are Sunnis on the Governing Council. But they are not people who closely affiliated with those who are sympathetic to the insurgency, certainly, or even probably to the ordinary Sunni. They're sort of notables from families inside -- traditionally powerful families inside of Baghdad. So it remains to be seen whether that all-important group, the Sunni Arabs, will have buy in this constitution.
BROWN: In the constitutional sense, what hasn't been done that needs to be done? What often happens in tough negotiations is, you set some things aside and say, well, we'll get to those later.
FELDMAN: Absolutely. Deferral is a great strategy when you're trying to meet a deadline. And, in general, in constitutions, it is pretty useful. So the status of Kirkuk, which is an oil-rich city that is claimed both by Kurds and by Turkoman and by some Sunni Arabs, remains undetermined. Exactly how much federalism the Kurds in the north will have remains undetermined.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: And when you say federalism, what you really mean is how much autonomy they will have, right?
FELDMAN: I think that's right. I think that's right. This constitution sets up asymmetric federalism. The Kurds have more autonomy right now than the other parts of the country do and probably will retain that. For example, they have 50,000 men at arms and they're more or less retaining control over those, even though, theoretically, those troops will belong to a National Guard that will be responsible to a central government
.BROWN: Do you think that there's a danger still of civil war?
FELDMAN: It's real. It's still with us. I think that we've moved one step further away from it, but if the bombings on religious Shia sites continue and if Shia who have been patient very far run out of patience and decide to take revenge against at least some Sunni, then there really could be a situation of Sunni-Shia violence. And the Kurds will then walk away from it and say, a plague on both your houses. We're just declaring independence. I don't think that's a likely outcome, but it definitely could happen.
BROWN: I said before we were on the air, it's a good day, not a perfect day. Do you remember how you responded?
FELDMAN: Well, I said, better than the alternatives, right?
BROWN: And it was a perfect day, it wouldn't be real.
FELDMAN: Right. That's right. If it were a perfect day, it wouldn't be real. If everyone agreed and they all smiled and there was no disagreement, you would know it was a setup. And that's exactly what the Middle East doesn't need and what Iraq doesn't need. We need the real thing, not a show trial, not a show government.
BROWN: Professor, it must have been a fascinating process, a little piece of history. Thanks. Good to talk to you again.
FELDMAN: Likewise.
BROWN: Thank you, Noah Feldman. Still to come on the program tonight, trafficking in human body parts. Oh, my, the uproar at UCLA over the misuse of donated organs. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Yikes. Did you read the first one? Scientists often say -- this is an unintended segue, by the way -- scientists often say they stand on the shoulders of giants, the giants being those that broke the ground on which new advances are built. Science and medicine also depend on the goodwill of ordinary people, people who donate their bodies to benefit others. UCLA's medical school, like many others, receives over 100 bodies each year. They're supposed to be used for education and research. That's certain what the donors and their families expect.To sell the bodies for profit is certainly not part of the deal. But that is the charge at UCLA. Two arrests have been made. More could come. Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The alleged sales of body parts were from cadavers donated to UCLA's Willed Body Program for medical education and research. Officials now believe some body parts were illegally sold for profit.
GERALD S. LEVEY, VICE CHANCELLOR, UCLA SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: These alleged crimes violate the trust of the donors, their families, and UCLA. We are deeply sorry.
BUCKLEY: Arrested in the case, Henry Reid, UCLA's Willed Body Program director, on suspicion of grand theft, and Earnest Nelson, an alleged middleman, who according to UCLA officials, sold the parts to research firms. Both men allegedly profited from the scheme.
LEVEY: We have no indication that the anatomical specimens involved in this case were used for anything other than medical research.
BUCKLEY: But that's little comfort to Shirley Williams and others, whose loved ones donated their bodies to UCLA. Ms. Williams' husband, Richard, died two years after ago a stroke. His body went to UCLA with the promise it would be returned after scientists could examine it. Instead, she said, she was told that her husband's body had been cremated, the ashes already scattered. After hearing about the current investigation at UCLA, Williams and her attorney filed a class-action lawsuit against the university.
SHIRLEY WILLIAMS, WIDOW OF BODY DONOR: It may not be murder but it's -- it's devastating and that person that has to hear those words, you know, you just feel like you're being kicked in the stomach.
BUCKLEY: CNN couldn't reach Reid or Nelson for comment. But Nelson did tell "The Los Angeles Times" that he removed parts from approximately 800 cadavers over a six-year period following a protocol provided by Reid. "I follow that protocol and they charge me with receiving stolen body parts?" he said. Human tissue is used in everything from surgical products to medical instrument training. Institutions like UCLA can reallocate body parts to research firms for nominal fees, but profiting is prohibited.
PROF. MICHAEL SHAPIRO, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: We don't want to reduce persons and the representatives of persons, their body parts, to mere commodities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY: UCLA officials say they believe that Nelson's claim of 800 cadavers being involved is an exaggeration. But they concede, Aaron, they just don't know how many bodies are involved, because the records for the program are now in the hands of investigators -- Aaron.
BROWN: And what is the crime?
BUCKLEY: Well, in this case, they're very simple crimes. They stole something and the other guy received something...
BROWN: Got it.
BUCKLEY: ... that was stolen.
BROWN: So it's theft?
BUCKLEY: Yes, it's grand theft and receiving stolen property.
BROWN: My goodness. Thank you, Frank -- Frank Buckley out in L.A. tonight. "Moneyline Roundup" now and the fate of Disney's CEO Michael Eisner. My, he's made a lot of news of late, hasn't he? According to "The Financial Times," Disney's board of directors of Disney will meet next month to discuss plans of a possible successor, this as the big cable operator Comcast said it's unlikely to sweeten its about $60 billion offer to buy out Disney. A new study gives a boost to what's already a Blockbuster pill. It shows that patients taking high doses of the cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor suffered from significantly lower rates of heart attack and stroke compared to other patients on similar, but less potent medicines. Said one doctor involved in the two-year study, "This is really a big deal." Shares of Pfizer, which makes Lipitor, were up a bunch today. It did OK in after-hours trading, as well. The rest of the market, unfortunately, was sort of nasty. Intel dragged down the Dow and the Nasdaq a bit, not a very pleasant day to start the week. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a new medical procedure that could offer women with cancer the opportunity to preserve their ability to have a child. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's one of the bitter truths about cancer. You can survive the disease, but the treatment that saves you can do irreversible damage, like making you infertile. For women, that's especially grim because of the limits of science, but those limits may be bending. An experimental technique which freezes and transplants ovarian tissue has taken a step forward, not a final step, but a good and important one. The results appear in today's edition of the medical journal "The Lansing."Here's CNN's Holly Firfer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLLY FIRFER, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer, he knew that radiation and chemotherapy would leave him sterile. So he froze his sperm so that he and his ten wife could have a family some day. Eight years later, he's a father to three healthy children. Women and young girls don't have that clear option. Treatment for cancer and other diseases can leave them infertile. Dr. Kutluk Oktay is pioneering an experimental procedure to help women preserve the dream of becoming mothers. DR.
KUTLUK OKTAY, WEILL MEDICAL COLLEGE: And many of these patients actually told me that it made them more upset to find out that they won't be able to have babies than they may die of Their cancer. This in effect helps them cope better with the cancer.
FIRFER: Dr. Oktay removed part of a 30-year-old breast cancer patient's ovary and preserved it cryogenically. Six years later, it was removed from the liquid nitrogen and implanted just below the skin on her abdomen. The ovary began to make eggs, which were harvested and fertilized. One egg split into four cells and this embryo was implanted into the women's uterus. Although the women's pregnancy was not successful, doctors say the fact that her ovarian function was restored just menopause reversed gives them great hope.
DR. JOE MASSEY, INFERTILITY SPECIALIST: The research has been slow up to this point. I think it's encouraging. We think it will go much faster now.
FIRFER: Some express concern that the potential for reintroducing cancerous tissue into the body still exists and warn, even if a viable pregnancy results, the child will need meticulous follow-up to ensure he or she is healthy. But Dr. Oktay says this is an important first step.
OKTAY: If our goal is to go to the moon, we're orbiting the moon now and now we're looking for the right spot to land.
FIRFER: But for many women who successfully beat cancer, reversing menopause and regaining the possibility to have children will be nothing short of a miracle. Holly Firfer, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
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(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, after a brief absence, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. We'll start with "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times" in France. There's three good stories on the front page of the -- well, perhaps they're all good, but I like these three. The interim council -- the Iraqi council, which is an interim council, signs the interim charter. We told you about that. Down at the bottom, though, some of the complications all of this can be seen in Afghanistan. "In Afghanistan, Agony As Escape. Women Fleeing Cruel Lives Choose Even Crueler Deaths." It's a horrible -- it's a wonderfully written story by Carlotta Gall about how little life has changed for women in the post-Taliban era outside of the major cities. Inside the major cities, things are a little bit better. Anyway, it's a very good piece. It was in today's The New York Times." And, finally, some Dutch advice to U.S. on gay marriages. "Go Slowly," an interesting story, because that whole issue seems to be moving at warp speed in this country.
"The Washington Times" leads with the Iraqi constitution. Just a kind of interesting headline to me. And, again, "The Washington Times" is the more conservative of the two papers in Washington. "Bush Chides Kerry On Intelligence Cuts, Paints Senator as a Flip- Flopper." I guess there's a couple of ways you might have led that story or headlined that story.
"The Atlanta-Journal Constitution" starts with the constitution." "Iraqis Sign Constitution." Down at the bottom, "Kerry's Views Underscore Split in Religious Vote," a political story there. We're down to a minute.Here's good news, by the way. People say we don't do enough good news.
"The Boston Herald" supplies some. "Drunken Surgeon Busted." That to me good news, though I know none of the details. That's
"The Boston Herald" this morning.How we doing on time, Terry (ph)? Thirty-seven seconds. Here's good news, too. You know, people say we don't do enough good news, but
"The Detroit News." "The Big Three Reliability Gets a Lift." So I guess those cars aren't breaking down like you used to think they did, but they were never that bad. But you know what I mean.OK, finally,
"The Chicago Sun-Times," because we always end on that. Quickly down here, "Juanita Jordan Selling Real Estate." That's Michael Jordan's wife, is a realtor in Highland Park. Remember, I began the program by saying, you can never have too much money? That's the proof of it. "Very familiar" is the weather in Chicago.We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Before we go tonight, another look at our top story. Martha Stewart meeting today with a federal probation officer, step one in the sentencing process which concludes in June, presumably. The board of Martha Stewart Omnimedia also met today. Sources say MSNBC Stewart will either resign from the board or not stand for reelection. Meantime, CBS and UPN have dumped her TV show, "Martha Stewart Living," from their schedules. Tomorrow on this program, a town with history running through it, year-round sunshine and, yes, it could be all yours, for the right price. Huh. Before we go, Soledad O'Brien with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," John Kerry's Swiss education. The future senator and presidential candidate was only 11 years old when he was passed off to an exclusive school in Switzerland. We'll see how that shaped the man we see today, CNN tomorrow 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Thank you, Ms. O'Brien.We'll see all of you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. For most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.Good night for all of us.Trade Punches Early>
