10 Americans Die In Iraq; Al Franken Goads Bill O'Reilly With Title Of New Radio Show; Hall of Famer Apologizes For Insensitive Remark
Aired March 31, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Kind of an unpleasant day in the news. At the risk of numbing you with numbers, here are a few to note today beginning with the number ten.Ten Americans died in Iraq today, six of them soldiers. That makes at least 50 soldiers killed in Iraq this month, making this March the second worst month since last May when the president declared major combat over.A few more numbers to consider, 90, that's how many days until the U.S. turns sovereignty back to the Iraqis. That day is important in many respects. It's important to Iraqis. It's important to the administration. It is not, we suspect, especially important to the 100,000-plus American troops there. Their jobs and their risks will not much change.And so we add one more number tonight, 600. Six hundred American military people have died in the war but numbers only tell so much. They hardly capture the absolute horror of this day.Iraq tops the news tonight and begins the whip and the whip begins in Baghdad. CNN's Walter Rodgers had the duty, Walt an unpleasant headline.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Wednesday tied the record for the bloodiest single day for Americans so far this year, ten killed, six of them soldiers, four civilian contractors killed. They were literally butchered -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, we'll get back to you at the top tonight.Iraq at the Pentagon too, same day, CNN's Jamie McIntyre there, Jamie your headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, in 1993, horrific images of American soldiers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. The bodies of those soldiers prompted a complete reassessment of the U.S. policy and a withdrawal from Somalia but now it's Iraq and Pentagon officials say cutting and running is not an option.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get back to you as well. And back home a media story that's also a political story, talk radio of a different stripe, CNN's Kelly Wallace covered, Kelly the headline.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, liberals hope what happened today will be the start of something big, the launch of a new national liberal radio network hoping to compete with conservatives like Rush Limbaugh, the big question though will this catch on with the American people -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.Also on the program tonight a football legend fumbles, Paul Hornung on academic standards and Notre Dame and race. The last part of the sentence causing the flap as you would imagine.Plus, reality TV in Arab countries, Islamic countries where big brother is life, not necessarily a show.And, of course, the rooster will crow the April Fool's edition of morning papers, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin tonight in Iraq where the pictures speak of chaos and cruelty and the past. It is impossible to look at the footage today and not be reminded of Somalia a decade ago. It would also be a mistake. So says the president, so say the generals. Fallujah isn't Mogadishu, they say. Iraq is not Somalia for many reasons.The plan remains to hand over control to an Iraqi government three months from now, control in quotes. What happened in Fallujah and what's happening in the Sunni Triangle can't help but raise questions about the turnover.We have two reports tonight beginning in Baghdad and CNN's Walter Rodgers.
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RODGERS (voice-over): When the TV cameras arrived, Iraqis were stoning the two burning vehicles. Four civilian contractors, Americans, ambushed. Witnesses said their SUVs were stopped by exploding hand grenades, the vehicles then sprayed with gunfire and set alight.There is much more we will not show but we believe some images are necessary to fully illustrate the extent of the violence. These Iraqis seem to revel in mutilating and displaying the dead bodies.Bystanders shouted "Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans" and "We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam."But the blood and sacrifice this day was from four civilian contractors come to Iraq to try to rebuild this country. The crowd then dragged the corpses through the streets of Fallujah, an area which has seen some of the worst violence in Iraq this past year. Two of the victims' charred bodies were later hung from this bridge over the Euphrates River. U.S. officials blamed insurgents.
DAN SENOR, SENIOR COALITION ADVISER: They are people who want Iraq to turn back to an era of mass graves, or rape rooms and torture chambers and chemical attacks. They want to turn back to the era of Saddam Hussein.
RODGERS: Nearby, in Habbaniyah, in a separate incident five American soldiers were also killed by a powerful explosion that left a 15-foot crater in the road.
GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: There's a small core element that doesn't seem to get it. They're desperate to try to hold out, desperate to try to turn back the hands of time and that just isn't going to happen.
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RODGERS: U.S. officials claim this violence testifies to the opposition's desperation and as the deadline approaches for Iraqis to begin governing themselves, officials also say violence like this is going to increase -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, we'll deal with that question a little bit later. Let me ask you a very practical question for our viewers. To what extent does the violence in the country inhibit or prohibit us from covering the story?
RODGERS: Substantially. We can never go out at night on the streets, Aaron. It just isn't safe. I can't walk about and test the waters here in this country on the streets alone. Under management's edict I have to go out with an armed security guard at all times. There are places in this country we just cannot go to cover news. It's dangerous in Fallujah and many other parts of this country -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you, Walter Rodgers in Baghdad tonight.From the very first moments everyone, those of us in the news business and those in the political business, the military business in Washington saw the problems in the pictures. From our end, the question is easy to ask and harder to answer. How much is enough? This was a horrible nasty piece of business today and we need to convey that but how much do we need to show? That question was being asked in Washington too for different reasons. With that, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
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MCINTYRE (voice-over): The horrific account of how the bodies of four U.S. contractors were mutilated drew a sharp response from the White House.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It is offensive. It is despicable the way that these individuals have been treated and we hope everybody acts responsibly in their coverage of it.
MCINTYRE: In 1993, it was similar television images of jubilant Somalis dancing on a downed Black Hawk helicopter and dragging the bodies of American soldiers through Mogadishu that undercut public support for what was supposed to be a humanitarian mission and resulted in a U.S. pullout within a year but in Iraq, which has turned into a deadly guerilla war, beating a quick retreat is not a politically acceptable option.
KIMMITT: That isn't going to stop us from doing our mission. In fact, it would be disgracing the deaths of these people if we were to stop our missions.
MCINTYRE: Fallujah is in the heart of the so-called Sunni Triangle that extends north and west of Baghdad, the part of Iraq that had the strongest support for Saddam Hussein during his 23 years of rule. The capture of Saddam last year hasn't taken much fight out of the insurgents. Instead the Sunni minority now seem even more fearful of the June 30th transfer of sovereignty, which will give their bitter foes, the Shiites, a majority in the government.The U.S. had hoped by the summer Iraqis could provide security in Fallujah but earlier this month a top U.S. commander admitted to Congress the newly-trained Iraqi police force is not yet ready.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: In some areas it certainly is not and having personally been to the locations that you're talking about in Fallujah I would say that those forces there are not adequately trained or equipped.
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MCINTYRE: So while the U.S. strategy is to move U.S. troops off the front lines in Iraq and out of the crossfire, the reality is in places like Fallujah the U.S. is going to have to provide extensive military support well past the June 30 turnover date -- Aaron.BROWN: Jamie, let's talk about the Somalia-Iraq analogy one more step. Somalia had limited geopolitical significance, very different with Iraq.
MCINTYRE: Yes, and the other big difference was the U.S. had not signed up for the mission it was carrying out in Somalia. You may recall at the time that the Pentagon was even denying that it was in a manhunt for Mohammed Farah Aidid, so when the U.S. took heavy casualties in that incident, the American public and the Congress wasn't prepared for it. It was a little bit different this time. It's pretty clear the U.S. has taken on a huge responsibility in Iraq and it can't responsibly leave.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.On now to what has arguably become the most anticipated Q&A session in recent political history. Today the 9/11 commission said it hopes to hear testimony from Condoleezza Rice within the next ten days. The White House too said it wants Dr. Rice to testify as soon as possible. What a difference a day and a half makes.Whether Dr. Rice's testimony will put to rest the political storm that has erupted in the last week and a half remains to be seen. The focus tonight the questions she might face.Here's our Senior Analyst Jeff Greenfield.
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JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): OK, now that the White House has said she can testify, what does the commission want to know? Here's what the chairman said Wednesday morning.
TOM KEAN, 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: Then what was the policy of the Bush administration as they proceeded ahead and we want to clear up any discrepancies between her testimony and other people.
GREENFIELD: And it's pretty clear that Dr. Rice will be asked to respond to Richard Clarke's harsh judgment of just how seriously the Bush administration did or did not take the terrorist threat.
RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: I believe the Bush administration in the first eight months considered terrorism an important issue but not an urgent issue.
GREENFIELD (on camera): But there are also some other clues about what the commission is likely to want to know. Its staff has prepared eight preliminary findings about what led up to September 11th, everything from how the hijackers got into the United States to lost opportunities to capture or kill bin Laden during the Clinton years and some of these findings raise some very interesting questions for Dr. Rice.(voice-over): For instance, the staff findings say that Richard Clarke pushed urgently to help the Northern Alliance fight the Taliban in Afghanistan and he warned that delay risked the Alliance's defeat. Dr. Rice said the issue had to be folded into a broader look at U.S. policy toward Afghanistan.Question, did Clarke and his allies link aide to the Northern Alliance with the goal of rolling back al Qaeda and was the message conveyed that time was of the essence?Second, the commission staff found that the new administration began to develop new policies toward al Qaeda in 2001 but there is no evidence of new work on military capabilities or plans against this enemy before September 11. The pace of the development of a new policy is what led to this question that former Republican Senator Slade Gorton put to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.
SLADE GORTON, 9/11 COMMISSION: What made you think that we had the luxury of that much time even seven months much less three years before we could cure this particular problem?
GREENFIELD: Rumsfeld said he couldn't defend that time table and Dr. Rice may well be asked that same question.Finally, and perhaps most dramatically, the staff found a sharp spike in threat reporting all through the late spring and summer of 2001. The deputy director of Central Intelligence, John McLaughlin "felt a great tension between the new administration's need to understand these issues and his sense that this was a matter of great urgency." Policymakers, McLaughlin believed, were too skeptical of these reports.And the staff also found that two veteran counterterrorism center officers who were deeply involved in Osama bin Laden issues were so worried about an impending disaster that one of them told us they considered resigning and going public with their concerns.The question for Dr. Rice was she aware of this growing sense of urgency? Did Richard Clarke or any other official specifically warn her that urgent attention had to be paid?(on camera): Any attempt to look back at September 11th runs a very real risk of distortion. We see every clue, every scrap of evidence through the prism of what we know did happen, so the questions for Dr. Rice are or should be much narrower. Was the Bush administration alert enough to the growing signs of danger coming from an enemy unlike any they had looked at or dealt with in the past?Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
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BROWN: While the 9/11 commission is looking back at what the government was doing to protect the country from terrorism before the 9/11 attacks, a tool for preventing future terror attacks has been under construction, a comprehensive list of possible terrorists compiled by the FBI. Government officials said it would be completed by the end of this month. That would be today and they do have a list but the project is far from complete.Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.
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KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The goal to keep known terrorists, like two of the September 11th hijackers, from ever getting into the United States again. How? By combining information about suspects gathered by any U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agency into a single terror watch list. Two and a half years after the attacks there now is one but officials admit it's a work in progress.
DONNA BUCELLA, TERRORIST SCREENING CENTER: We now have a single database which is updated daily and is unclassified law enforcement sensitive containing identifying information of known or suspected terrorists.ARENA: The Terrorist Screening Center housed within the FBI currently has about 55,000 names on its new consolidated terror watch list. It's accessible to everyone from Customs and Border Patrol agents to local police but not instantaneously.
REP. JIM TURNER (D), TEXAS: If you have the 1-800 number and you are a law enforcement officer or federal official you can call in and you can give them a name and they will run a search on the database but they still do not have the ability to access that in real time.ARENA: What's more the list is incomplete. Some agencies still have not handed over all their names and despite an effort to include identifying information some travelers are still mistaken for terrorists who share the same name.
ASIF IQBAL: It was very embarrassing. I mean I was just discriminated on the basis of my name and that has been repeatedly going on.ARENA (on camera): Officials say they will put a mechanism in place to resolve that issue and they promise a complete and fully automated list by the end of the year.Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
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BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, what is a college to do when an illustrious alum makes a major stumble on race?And later, the Los Angeles River in all its beauty, no kidding.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: We have said more than once that in our view no issue so confounds the country as does race. Tonight it is race and sport and comments made by a one time football legend about Notre Dame. "The problem with Notre Dame football," said Paul Hornung, "is that academic standards are too high, too high to get black athletes." That was yesterday. The apology came today. The questions raised will last a bit longer.Here's CNN's Josie Burke.
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JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the golden dome and touchdown Jesus and a record number of championships to its name, Notre Dame is a place that loves tradition and heroes almost as much as winning itself. But the team is losing and heroes don't always act the part and, on this day, Paul Hornung said he was sorry.
PAUL HORNUNG, PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER: I didn't mean to say just the African American athlete. I should have said all athletes. It's tough to get into Notre Dame. I don't have to tell that to anybody.
BURKE: The apology comes a day after remarks he made on a radio station in Detroit about winning and standards and race.
HORNUNG: We can't stay as strict as we are as far as the academic structure is concerned, because we got to get the black athlete. We must get the black athlete if we're going to compete. We open up with Michigan State -- I mean Michigan, Michigan St. and Purdue. Those are the first three games, you know, and you can't play a schedule like this unless you have the black athlete today. You just can't do it.
MARQUES BOLDEN, NOTRE DAME SOPHOMORE: It was kind of offensive just basically saying that African American students couldn't get into a school without standards being lowered. It shows that, you know, maybe this feel is probably widespread and it's just not probably him.
BURKE: True or not his alma mater was quick to respond."Paul Hornung in no way speaks for the university and we strongly disagree with the thesis of his remarks. These are generally insensitive and specifically insulting to our past and current African American student athletes."He does, however, join a list of sports notables who have spoken on the subject in haste. Former ESPN analyst Rush Limbaugh on Eagle's quarterback Donovan McNabb.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, FORMER ESPN ANALYST: I think the media has been very desirous... that a black quarterback do well
(UNINTELLIGIBLE)
...black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well I think there is a little hope invested in McNabb.
BURKE: He lost his job. So did Al Campanas and Jimmy the Greek. Like the dome and touchdown Jesus, a tradition, just nothing to brag about.Josie Burke, CNN.
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BROWN: Over the years, Robert Lipsyte has written a lot about race and sport. Mr. Lipsyte was a columnist for years at the "New York Times" and still writes for the paper among other chores in life. We're pleased to have him with us tonight. OK, it was a dumb thing to say, yes?
ROBERT LIPSYTE, SPORTS WRITER: Well, I mean Paul Hornung was a great football player, also known as a great wild man and not a heavy thinker and what makes us really uncomfortable is he touched a real sore spot. His apology was right that Notre Dame needs to raise the bar for all athletes but...
BROWN: Or lower the bar as the case may be.
LIPSYTE: Right. But since almost half of all the big ticket college athletes in American are African American there's no way to get race out of the equation.
BROWN: So how ought we look at race in the equation in a way that is not insensitive or offensive or any of that? How do we need to think about this?
LIPSYTE: Well, we have to start with the thought that dumping it on sports or Notre Dame or football is absurd. It's the fact that these kids come from either substandard high schools where they're not getting the education that they need to participate in college or because they're such great athletes that they've been kind of waved through such educational nuances as actually learning how to read.
BROWN: They come into school, I mean the high schools have issues here it seems to me. The colleges have issues too in what they do once they get their hands on the kids.
LIPSYTE: Right and right now we're in what is considered the most exciting sports event of the calendar, the Final Four.
BROWN: Yes.
LIPSYTE: So now and it's the same issue that Hornung was talking about in football. These kids...
BROWN: But why then can a Duke compete year after year in basketball?LIPSYTE: Well, you know, if you and I could go and we could have subpoena powers, I would like to look at Duke. I would like to look at Stanford. I would like to really know what those schools are doing, whether they're all -- those kids are all taking criminal justice and sociology.
BROWN: Right.
LIPSYTE: Just how it works but I also know that when you're say an East Coast school and you have Thursday night games in California and you are not going to two or three days of classes and you've come into college perhaps a little weaker than perhaps you should be in your SAT scores and in your preparation you may never graduate and most of them, of course, don't.
BROWN: Just one difference it seems to me between football and basketball. Basketball you really need to find half a dozen terrific kids or nine terrific kids.
LIPSYTE: Right.
BROWN: Football is much more complicated. The universe of a team is so much larger. Is there -- ought we think about all of this differently? Should we look at college sport, the college sports business and just set all this academic nonsense aside because by and large the universities don't seem to care that much?
LIPSYTE: But they do.
BROWN: Do they?
LIPSYTE: Yes, they do and you talk to college presidents and they really feel that first of all they're stuck because the mortgages on these arenas and the stadiums that they've bought into are enormous.Secondly, the bridge between the university and what they consider the outer constituency, the towns around them, the legislature of the school of the states that they're in really need that kind of communication that sports offers, so sports they feel is important. The problem is that more and more major universities are really football teams that happen to have some classes affiliated.BROWN: It's nice to see you. I hope you'll come back and talk to us about all sorts of things, sports and otherwise.
LIPSYTE: I hope so too.
BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Lipsyte. It's nice to meet you finally. It's been a long time.Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the left strikes back so to speak to conservative domination for years of talk radio. It goes liberal some places, a break first.Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: We have learned from reading the e-mails and letters over the years that if viewers agree with what you say you are telling it like it is. If they don't agree you're biased, or maybe it's the other way around. We make note of this by way of introducing Air America, the liberal radio network, which made its debut today. Beyond that no comment.Kelly Wallace reports, you decide.
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AL FRANKEN, HOST, AIR AMERICA: Broadcasting from an underground bunker 3,500 feet below Dick Cheney's bunker, Air America Radio is on the air.
WALLACE (voice-over): And with that comedian and political satirist Al Franken launched what liberals hope will be the start of a new liberal radio revolution.
FRANKEN: An end to the right wing dominance of talk radio, the beginning of a battle for truth.
WALLACE: But what a battle it will be. Conservatives dominate the radio dial, Rush Limbaugh with his 15 million listeners this week.
SEAN HANNITY, WABC RADIO: And we're going to get your reaction to all these unfolding events.
WALLACE: Sean Hannity right behind. All Hannity would say today he was feeling giddy, why?
HANNITY: Here's a hint. These people are not bright. Here's a hint. They really are dull.
WALLACE: But liberals say look out.
JOY BEHAR, ABC'S "THE VIEW": I don't understand the whole idea that liberals are not funny.
WALLACE: They say they've got humor, star power like radio host actress Janeane Garofalo and listeners who they say despise the Bush administration and are hungry for an alternative.
JANEANE GAROFALO, HOST, AIR AMERICA: An audience that cannot stand the right wing noise coming from radio and from cable news and just the millions of Americans who are upset over the political process.
WALLACE: At a party celebrating the debut of Air America, Al Franken explained why he chose to name his show the "O'Franken Factor."
FRANKEN: There's really one reason and one reason only and that is to annoy and to bait Bill O'Reilly.
WALLACE: O'Reilly, host of "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox, and Franken publicly dueled on a book fair last year.
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS: Hey, shut up. You had your 35 minutes. Shut up.
FRANKEN: This isn't your show, Bill.
O'REILLY: This is what this guy does. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Ouch. But here's the big challenge for Air America. While O'Reilly and Hannity and Limbaugh can be heard on hundreds of stations around the country, Franken and his colleagues, Aaron, can only appear right now on six stations.
BROWN: Well, it's the first day.
WALLACE: It can only go up from here?
BROWN: It's a long way to go. They have a lot of work today. Were they good today?
WALLACE: They can only go up from here.
BROWN: They can only go up from here. That was very diplomatically done. Thank you.
WALLACE: Thank you. BROWN: Thank you, Kelly. On to a few other items making news.Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the "Moneyline Roundup," there she was again, Martha Stewart, the lawyers asking for a retrial on grounds that one of the jurors lied about brushes with the law in order to get on the case. The defense says it would have challenged the juror's inclusion had it known about this, no comment from the U.S. attorney's office. They'll file papers.Donald Trump's accounting firm says a big chunk of Mr. Trump's business may be tapioca. That's a technical term, by the way, we use when we report these financial things. Ernst & Young said that, absent some big changes, Mr. Trump's hotel and casino business may not be able to continue as a going concern. In other words, they would be fired. The markets, meantime, had a sluggish days. Concerns about oil prices, soft employment numbers and so-so many factors all played a part in keeping a lid on the indexes. At the end of the quarter, the Dow industrials and the Nasdaq both down for the first time in a year or more. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, handing over control in Iraq, no one ever thought it would simple. Today proves the point. Where do we go from here.From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
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BROWN: When Benjamin Franklin left the Constitutional Convention have been helped make history, a woman is said to have asked him, "Mr. Franklin, what have you given us?" He replied, "A republic, Madam, if you can keep it."Our guest Noah Feldman recently helped the Iraqis put together the outline of their republic, if they can get there, let alone keep it. The headlines today raise some questions. We want to get his take and that of Ken Pollack as well. Mr. Pollack joins us from Washington. And it is nice to see you both. Noah, let's talk security first, because it is a mess.
NOAH FELDMAN, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: It really is. The truth is that Sunni Arabs, who dominated the state under Saddam, have not accepted the idea of a new Iraq that's democratic where they'll be a minority. And, as a consequence, a lot of them are involved in supporting actively the military insurgency. And those who aren't actively supporting it, a lot of them are sympathetic to it, as we saw today, when one group of people attacked and killed American soldiers and civilians, and then another group of people who were weren't involved in the attack who were sympathetic to its aims stepped in and mutilated the bodies really tragically.
BROWN: Ken, was this a -- is this just a reality and there's nothing we could have done about it as a country, or have mistakes been made going into this that have created the situation? We are 90 days from a handover.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, and there's no question, Aaron, the clocking is ticking and we have got a lot of work to do before we can get to the point where we can safely turn it over. And, of course, the question is, turn it over to whom?I think there's also a big point out there that while it is certainly true that the U.S. cannot protect every single person in Iraq, it's still the case that we could have done a much better job of providing day-to-day security. It's the thing that you hear most from Iraqis. And the poll that was taken by a number of different news services last week showed that once again, an overwhelming majority of Iraqis saying their biggest problem is just day-to-day security, the fact that the U.S. is not trying to keep the streets safe.
BROWN: I want to get past security, but I need to ask one more question here, I think. Noah, let me direct it at you. Is there a way to deal with the political -- with the insurgents not so much on a military level, but to try and deal with them on a political level?
FELDMAN: You need to do both. You need a strong military hand telling people that a military approach is not going to cause us to turn tail and run. And you also, at the same time, need to bring in people politically who can speak for the folks who are sympathetic to the insurgents and tell them, you have a stake in the new Iraq and we're going to give you the following things.It's not a pretty picture, because they're fighting to get those things, but we need to bring them in and offer them some incentive to buy in.
BROWN: These are beyond those Sunnis who already have seats on the Governing Council?
FELDMAN: That's right, because the Sunnis on Governing Council, though they are ethnically and denominationally Sunni Arabs, are not really representative of the ordinary person, certainly not in the Sunni Triangle. They're elites living in and around the big cities. They're sort of like the senior partners in the major law firms more than the ordinary person on the street.
BROWN: Ken, do you agree with that? And, if you do, is that the same as negotiating with terrorists?
POLLACK: Yes, look, I absolutely agree with Noah. I think he's completely right.The only points I would add to what Noah said is that I think that we also need to reach out to the Sunni sheiks. Noah is absolutely right. The problem that we are having are with the tribal Sunnis in the triangle. And the way to reach out to them are through the tribal sheiks. And is this like negotiating with terrorists? Not really. The fact of the matter is, in the Middle East and particularly in Iraq, there is a long tradition of this. You go to the sheiks, you provide them with resources, and in return they provide security in their part of the country. Every ruler of Iraq has done it or they have faced problems with it. This should not be that difficult a problem if we're willing to go in there and sit down with the tribal sheiks.
BROWN: To both of you, but Ken first, what are the consequences there and here if the 90-day deadline isn't met?
POLLACK: Well, I think it will be met, because I think the administration is going to come up with something. My concern is that what they're going to do -- and I think Noah is alluding to this already -- is, they're basically just going to extend the life of the current Governing Council. And the current Governing Council is not considered legitimate. The Iraqis don't like it. They see it as appointed, unrepresentative of them. In fact, the problems with the Governing Council are what got us to the point to begin with, because it's the problems with the Governing Council that caused Paul Bremer to create this November 15 process that was supposed to replace them.
BROWN: Are you as convinced that the 90-day deadline is in stone here?
FELDMAN: I would say that it's not exactly in sand, but it's not in stone either. I would say it's on paper.And although I entirely agree with Ken that people are very committed to it's happening, if they believe in Washington that transferring sovereignty to the Iraqis on June 30 will lead to the collapse of the country between then and November, we're not going to transfer sovereignty. And we're getting closer to that possibility.
BROWN: But what really happens, since the security of the country remains in the hands -- or at least under the command and largely in the hands of the Americans, what would happen on June 30 that would cause the collapse of the country that didn't happen on March the 31st?
FELDMAN: Well, it's a catch-22, because if nothing happens, except for Ambassador Bremer coming home, then the Iraqis will say, well, where's our sovereignty? Nothing has changed. If, on the other hand, we give some governing authority to some expanded version of the Governing Council, as Ken was suggesting, which I think is absolutely the most likely outcome, some Iraqis may say, these guys are legitimate. And especially if Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the senior Shia cleric in the country, says, this is not going to fly, this is not good enough, then the new government will not have legitimacy. And that really could lead to greater security problems.
BROWN: It's good to see you, Ken. It's always good to have you with us. Thank you both for joining us very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Hopefully, there will be better days ahead there. A few quick items before we head to break.Senator Kerry resting tonight after surgery to repair his right shoulder. The operation in Boston took about 45 minutes, no complications, according to doctors. When it's that short, is there a co-pay? Mr. Kerry, they say, should be back shaking hands pretty soon. In Wisconsin -- this is a remarkable story -- a missing college student is safe tonight, the search now for a possible abductor. Audrey Seiler vanished on Saturday. She turned up in a marshy area of Madison, Wisconsin, today, the capital. Authorities won't say much, but doctors tell us she had been confined for a period of time and lucky apparently to get away. In New Jersey, the defense rested today in the manslaughter trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams. Despite promising jurors they would hear his own account of the shooting that killed his limo driver, Mr. Williams never took the witness stand. Closing arguments there scheduled for next week. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the L.A. River, to many, an eyesore, to some, a source of life. But to NEWSNIGHT and one photographer, it is a work of art. A break first. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ansel Adams, who made a name for himself photographing scenes in nature, put it well. "Almost anything manmade," he wrote, "that endures in time acquires some qualities of the natural. Bleak shapes grow into a kind of magic that, once seen, cannot easily be ignored" -- which brings us to the Los Angeles River, which, if we were being honest, is a drainage ditch, but which, through the eyes of photographer John Humble, cannot be ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN HUMBLE, PHOTOGRAPHER: I began photographing the river because I had been photographing L.A. for a long time, and I kind of ignored the river, like everybody else. It's not really a river anymore. As you can see, it's a big concrete ditch now. I just decided to do it in almost a pictorial way, to take something as ugly as this and really create beautiful photographs from it.So a lot had to do with lighting and it had to with my selection of the time, the angle, all that sort of thing. Up through the Glendale Narrows, they could not put concrete on the bottom, because the water level is too close to the surface. And so there are areas through there where there's a lot of vegetation that grows along the river, so it looks more like a real river, because it looks like fall in Vermont. I created that much through lighting, because the fact is that the sun is going down and it creates all of those reds and oranges and yellows across the foliage, so that it looks like fall, and, in fact, it's all green because there's a lot on it. And then I shot under the bridge and the river is traveling under the bridge. And you see all the pillars there. And, again, that's only a photograph because of the lighting, because of the fact that it was very late afternoon, and the light, kind of golden light, was coming under it, illuminating that area under the bridge. I think a lot of the people look at the power wires in Los Angeles and think they're relatively ugly. And, in a way, I guess they are, although, of course, they remind me of Paris and the Eiffel Tower. But they also are a stark reminder of how we live in Southern California, that everything is visible. And they help me in a way compositionally when I'm making photographs, because I can use them to slice up areas that would normally not have anything happening in them. That's the headwaters of the Los Angeles River. And right there, what you say is, you see Arroyo, Calabasas, and Bell Creek. And when they come together, right behind Canoga Park High School, that's the beginning of the Los Angeles River.All of the water from all around here, from the mountains, from the streets, everywhere, flows into this river. And 51 miles of concrete later, it gets taken out to that he ocean and Long Beach. I think that it's too bad more people in Los Angeles aren't aware of really the rich history that this river has. The reason that Los Angeles is here today as a city is because of this river. And by the time I finished photographing the river, I actually felt some affection for this river.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That was a spectacular piece. That was great. Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, reality TV comes to the Middle East, but why it won't stay. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We began the night with the horrific images of the attack on the American contract workers in Fallujah today. In this segment, we're back there as well with outrage over images of another sort. Perhaps it was inevitable. Western-style reality television has found its way on to Arab TV. The reaction says a lot about the challenges in the region, including Iraq. Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are a huge commercial success, Western-style reality TV shows captivating audiences in the Middle East, daring brands of entertainment here featuring young men and women under one roof for all to see. "Big Brother" clashed head-on with conservative Islam.
REINA SARKIS, PSYCHOLOGIST: It's as if that show sort of lifted the veil, not from women's faces, but from the society's face.
SADLER: Seen in some form, say the Dutch creators, by as many as two billion viewers in 25 countries, including the United States. (on camera): But not in the Middle East until producers thought they had worked out a new format that would not cross this region's strict religious and social boundaries. (voice-over): Wrong. MBC, a Saudi Arabian-owned company, pulled the plug on the reported $10 million program after just 10 days on air to silence a religious outcry in the kingdom of Bahrain, where the show was transmitted from. Howls of protest followed this scene of a Saudi man with a Saudi flag kissing a Tunisian housemate, sparking fierce debate that reached Parliament. "There are many other scenes that were sickening," says this Islamic M.P., "so we took action" to shut down this purpose-built studio with separate sleeping quarters for men and women and prayer rooms for both. Zain al-Thawadi is a Bahraini who worked on the show from day one, returning home after years of study in the United States to help produce what they thought was a pioneering adventure, only to feel crushed and let down.
ZAIN AL-THAWADI, ASST. PRODUCER, "BIG BROTHER": No matter how much you try to change it, nothing is going to change here, you know? I really feel -- I envy people who can just pick up their bags and leave. I really do.
SADLER: Viewers never saw these pictures of the 12 housemates doing just that, ending a regional show the creators promised to revamp and relocate to reach a part of the world where reality TV is far stranger than fiction. Brent Sadler, CNN, Bahrain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we got a ton of good ones today, not quite enough time to do them all well, but we'll do as many as we can."San Antonio Express-News." Everybody leading with Iraq today. "Americans Mutilated, Iraqi Mob Hangs Charred Bodies From a Bridge." That's the lead. They're also running a series on the final four. "Hooping It Up. You'll Pay to Stay in S.A." Get it? That's where the final four is this year."
"The Dallas Morning News." "Cheering For Death" is the headline. "Four U.S. Civilians Killed, Defiled in Iraqi Ambush." Down over in the corner, I like this story. "Pharmacy Refusals Assailed. Druggists Defend the Right to Deny Contraceptives on Moral Grounds." I need to think about that. "South Bend Tribune," South Bend, Indiana." "Hornung Backtracks, Denies Notre Dame Remark Was Racist." But he apologized anything, so what's that all about?
Now, what's interesting to me about that is "The Detroit News." The original comment was made on a Detroit radio station. "Notre Dame Legend Stands By His Remarks." So which is it? Did he backtrack or is he standing by his remarks? It's very confusing. This did not change. "Bloodshed in Iraq Rocks the United States."
"The Philadelphia Inquirer" leads the same. I think it's an horrific day, a horrific day? Well, it's one of the grammar things that confuses me. "A Horrific Day in Iraq. In Fallujah, Known for Resisting the U.S., Residents Set Upon the Dead in a Gruesome Display." It certainly was that. "Hate For U.S. Burns in Fallujah."How are we doing on time? Thirty seconds. OK. One more of these, "The Times Herald Record."
This is the actual "Times Herald Record" of Upstate New York. "Savage Attack" is their headline. And then they did a very funny thing, OK? They thought we wouldn't catch this. They thought we were silly or stupid, so they sent this one down. "The Times Herald" for April 1. "NEWSNIGHT Shocker: Aaron Can't Read. After Years of Blaming His Glasses, CNN Anchor Admits, 'I Never Had No Book Learnin'. Why do you think I do TV?'" Yes. Weather in Chicago, "foolish." No, the weather in Chicago tomorrow is "no joke." That's what it is. No joke here either. Bill Hemmer with a look at tomorrow's ""AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thank you.Tomorrow morning here on "AMERICAN MORNING," how was your dinner tonight? Was it interesting? Probably not as interesting as our friend Donna Brazile. She's dining with Michael Jackson tonight. And tomorrow, she'll dish up the story with us. How is the king of pop holding up, with all these legal problems and also his visit to D.C. this week? We will find out that from Ms. Brazile tomorrow morning, 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on "AMERICAN MORNING." Hope to see you then -- Aaron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. The's one of those we missed, Michael Jackson in Washington. We'll have to get to that tomorrow.Good to have you with us tonight."LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you coming up next. We'll see you tomorrow, on the actual April Fool's Day. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Aired March 31, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Kind of an unpleasant day in the news. At the risk of numbing you with numbers, here are a few to note today beginning with the number ten.Ten Americans died in Iraq today, six of them soldiers. That makes at least 50 soldiers killed in Iraq this month, making this March the second worst month since last May when the president declared major combat over.A few more numbers to consider, 90, that's how many days until the U.S. turns sovereignty back to the Iraqis. That day is important in many respects. It's important to Iraqis. It's important to the administration. It is not, we suspect, especially important to the 100,000-plus American troops there. Their jobs and their risks will not much change.And so we add one more number tonight, 600. Six hundred American military people have died in the war but numbers only tell so much. They hardly capture the absolute horror of this day.Iraq tops the news tonight and begins the whip and the whip begins in Baghdad. CNN's Walter Rodgers had the duty, Walt an unpleasant headline.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Wednesday tied the record for the bloodiest single day for Americans so far this year, ten killed, six of them soldiers, four civilian contractors killed. They were literally butchered -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, we'll get back to you at the top tonight.Iraq at the Pentagon too, same day, CNN's Jamie McIntyre there, Jamie your headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, in 1993, horrific images of American soldiers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. The bodies of those soldiers prompted a complete reassessment of the U.S. policy and a withdrawal from Somalia but now it's Iraq and Pentagon officials say cutting and running is not an option.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get back to you as well. And back home a media story that's also a political story, talk radio of a different stripe, CNN's Kelly Wallace covered, Kelly the headline.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, liberals hope what happened today will be the start of something big, the launch of a new national liberal radio network hoping to compete with conservatives like Rush Limbaugh, the big question though will this catch on with the American people -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.Also on the program tonight a football legend fumbles, Paul Hornung on academic standards and Notre Dame and race. The last part of the sentence causing the flap as you would imagine.Plus, reality TV in Arab countries, Islamic countries where big brother is life, not necessarily a show.And, of course, the rooster will crow the April Fool's edition of morning papers, all that and more in the hour ahead.We begin tonight in Iraq where the pictures speak of chaos and cruelty and the past. It is impossible to look at the footage today and not be reminded of Somalia a decade ago. It would also be a mistake. So says the president, so say the generals. Fallujah isn't Mogadishu, they say. Iraq is not Somalia for many reasons.The plan remains to hand over control to an Iraqi government three months from now, control in quotes. What happened in Fallujah and what's happening in the Sunni Triangle can't help but raise questions about the turnover.We have two reports tonight beginning in Baghdad and CNN's Walter Rodgers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS (voice-over): When the TV cameras arrived, Iraqis were stoning the two burning vehicles. Four civilian contractors, Americans, ambushed. Witnesses said their SUVs were stopped by exploding hand grenades, the vehicles then sprayed with gunfire and set alight.There is much more we will not show but we believe some images are necessary to fully illustrate the extent of the violence. These Iraqis seem to revel in mutilating and displaying the dead bodies.Bystanders shouted "Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans" and "We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam."But the blood and sacrifice this day was from four civilian contractors come to Iraq to try to rebuild this country. The crowd then dragged the corpses through the streets of Fallujah, an area which has seen some of the worst violence in Iraq this past year. Two of the victims' charred bodies were later hung from this bridge over the Euphrates River. U.S. officials blamed insurgents.
DAN SENOR, SENIOR COALITION ADVISER: They are people who want Iraq to turn back to an era of mass graves, or rape rooms and torture chambers and chemical attacks. They want to turn back to the era of Saddam Hussein.
RODGERS: Nearby, in Habbaniyah, in a separate incident five American soldiers were also killed by a powerful explosion that left a 15-foot crater in the road.
GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: There's a small core element that doesn't seem to get it. They're desperate to try to hold out, desperate to try to turn back the hands of time and that just isn't going to happen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RODGERS: U.S. officials claim this violence testifies to the opposition's desperation and as the deadline approaches for Iraqis to begin governing themselves, officials also say violence like this is going to increase -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, we'll deal with that question a little bit later. Let me ask you a very practical question for our viewers. To what extent does the violence in the country inhibit or prohibit us from covering the story?
RODGERS: Substantially. We can never go out at night on the streets, Aaron. It just isn't safe. I can't walk about and test the waters here in this country on the streets alone. Under management's edict I have to go out with an armed security guard at all times. There are places in this country we just cannot go to cover news. It's dangerous in Fallujah and many other parts of this country -- Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you, Walter Rodgers in Baghdad tonight.From the very first moments everyone, those of us in the news business and those in the political business, the military business in Washington saw the problems in the pictures. From our end, the question is easy to ask and harder to answer. How much is enough? This was a horrible nasty piece of business today and we need to convey that but how much do we need to show? That question was being asked in Washington too for different reasons. With that, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): The horrific account of how the bodies of four U.S. contractors were mutilated drew a sharp response from the White House.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It is offensive. It is despicable the way that these individuals have been treated and we hope everybody acts responsibly in their coverage of it.
MCINTYRE: In 1993, it was similar television images of jubilant Somalis dancing on a downed Black Hawk helicopter and dragging the bodies of American soldiers through Mogadishu that undercut public support for what was supposed to be a humanitarian mission and resulted in a U.S. pullout within a year but in Iraq, which has turned into a deadly guerilla war, beating a quick retreat is not a politically acceptable option.
KIMMITT: That isn't going to stop us from doing our mission. In fact, it would be disgracing the deaths of these people if we were to stop our missions.
MCINTYRE: Fallujah is in the heart of the so-called Sunni Triangle that extends north and west of Baghdad, the part of Iraq that had the strongest support for Saddam Hussein during his 23 years of rule. The capture of Saddam last year hasn't taken much fight out of the insurgents. Instead the Sunni minority now seem even more fearful of the June 30th transfer of sovereignty, which will give their bitter foes, the Shiites, a majority in the government.The U.S. had hoped by the summer Iraqis could provide security in Fallujah but earlier this month a top U.S. commander admitted to Congress the newly-trained Iraqi police force is not yet ready.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: In some areas it certainly is not and having personally been to the locations that you're talking about in Fallujah I would say that those forces there are not adequately trained or equipped.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So while the U.S. strategy is to move U.S. troops off the front lines in Iraq and out of the crossfire, the reality is in places like Fallujah the U.S. is going to have to provide extensive military support well past the June 30 turnover date -- Aaron.BROWN: Jamie, let's talk about the Somalia-Iraq analogy one more step. Somalia had limited geopolitical significance, very different with Iraq.
MCINTYRE: Yes, and the other big difference was the U.S. had not signed up for the mission it was carrying out in Somalia. You may recall at the time that the Pentagon was even denying that it was in a manhunt for Mohammed Farah Aidid, so when the U.S. took heavy casualties in that incident, the American public and the Congress wasn't prepared for it. It was a little bit different this time. It's pretty clear the U.S. has taken on a huge responsibility in Iraq and it can't responsibly leave.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.On now to what has arguably become the most anticipated Q&A session in recent political history. Today the 9/11 commission said it hopes to hear testimony from Condoleezza Rice within the next ten days. The White House too said it wants Dr. Rice to testify as soon as possible. What a difference a day and a half makes.Whether Dr. Rice's testimony will put to rest the political storm that has erupted in the last week and a half remains to be seen. The focus tonight the questions she might face.Here's our Senior Analyst Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): OK, now that the White House has said she can testify, what does the commission want to know? Here's what the chairman said Wednesday morning.
TOM KEAN, 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: Then what was the policy of the Bush administration as they proceeded ahead and we want to clear up any discrepancies between her testimony and other people.
GREENFIELD: And it's pretty clear that Dr. Rice will be asked to respond to Richard Clarke's harsh judgment of just how seriously the Bush administration did or did not take the terrorist threat.
RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: I believe the Bush administration in the first eight months considered terrorism an important issue but not an urgent issue.
GREENFIELD (on camera): But there are also some other clues about what the commission is likely to want to know. Its staff has prepared eight preliminary findings about what led up to September 11th, everything from how the hijackers got into the United States to lost opportunities to capture or kill bin Laden during the Clinton years and some of these findings raise some very interesting questions for Dr. Rice.(voice-over): For instance, the staff findings say that Richard Clarke pushed urgently to help the Northern Alliance fight the Taliban in Afghanistan and he warned that delay risked the Alliance's defeat. Dr. Rice said the issue had to be folded into a broader look at U.S. policy toward Afghanistan.Question, did Clarke and his allies link aide to the Northern Alliance with the goal of rolling back al Qaeda and was the message conveyed that time was of the essence?Second, the commission staff found that the new administration began to develop new policies toward al Qaeda in 2001 but there is no evidence of new work on military capabilities or plans against this enemy before September 11. The pace of the development of a new policy is what led to this question that former Republican Senator Slade Gorton put to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.
SLADE GORTON, 9/11 COMMISSION: What made you think that we had the luxury of that much time even seven months much less three years before we could cure this particular problem?
GREENFIELD: Rumsfeld said he couldn't defend that time table and Dr. Rice may well be asked that same question.Finally, and perhaps most dramatically, the staff found a sharp spike in threat reporting all through the late spring and summer of 2001. The deputy director of Central Intelligence, John McLaughlin "felt a great tension between the new administration's need to understand these issues and his sense that this was a matter of great urgency." Policymakers, McLaughlin believed, were too skeptical of these reports.And the staff also found that two veteran counterterrorism center officers who were deeply involved in Osama bin Laden issues were so worried about an impending disaster that one of them told us they considered resigning and going public with their concerns.The question for Dr. Rice was she aware of this growing sense of urgency? Did Richard Clarke or any other official specifically warn her that urgent attention had to be paid?(on camera): Any attempt to look back at September 11th runs a very real risk of distortion. We see every clue, every scrap of evidence through the prism of what we know did happen, so the questions for Dr. Rice are or should be much narrower. Was the Bush administration alert enough to the growing signs of danger coming from an enemy unlike any they had looked at or dealt with in the past?Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: While the 9/11 commission is looking back at what the government was doing to protect the country from terrorism before the 9/11 attacks, a tool for preventing future terror attacks has been under construction, a comprehensive list of possible terrorists compiled by the FBI. Government officials said it would be completed by the end of this month. That would be today and they do have a list but the project is far from complete.Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The goal to keep known terrorists, like two of the September 11th hijackers, from ever getting into the United States again. How? By combining information about suspects gathered by any U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agency into a single terror watch list. Two and a half years after the attacks there now is one but officials admit it's a work in progress.
DONNA BUCELLA, TERRORIST SCREENING CENTER: We now have a single database which is updated daily and is unclassified law enforcement sensitive containing identifying information of known or suspected terrorists.ARENA: The Terrorist Screening Center housed within the FBI currently has about 55,000 names on its new consolidated terror watch list. It's accessible to everyone from Customs and Border Patrol agents to local police but not instantaneously.
REP. JIM TURNER (D), TEXAS: If you have the 1-800 number and you are a law enforcement officer or federal official you can call in and you can give them a name and they will run a search on the database but they still do not have the ability to access that in real time.ARENA: What's more the list is incomplete. Some agencies still have not handed over all their names and despite an effort to include identifying information some travelers are still mistaken for terrorists who share the same name.
ASIF IQBAL: It was very embarrassing. I mean I was just discriminated on the basis of my name and that has been repeatedly going on.ARENA (on camera): Officials say they will put a mechanism in place to resolve that issue and they promise a complete and fully automated list by the end of the year.Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, what is a college to do when an illustrious alum makes a major stumble on race?And later, the Los Angeles River in all its beauty, no kidding.From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have said more than once that in our view no issue so confounds the country as does race. Tonight it is race and sport and comments made by a one time football legend about Notre Dame. "The problem with Notre Dame football," said Paul Hornung, "is that academic standards are too high, too high to get black athletes." That was yesterday. The apology came today. The questions raised will last a bit longer.Here's CNN's Josie Burke.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the golden dome and touchdown Jesus and a record number of championships to its name, Notre Dame is a place that loves tradition and heroes almost as much as winning itself. But the team is losing and heroes don't always act the part and, on this day, Paul Hornung said he was sorry.
PAUL HORNUNG, PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER: I didn't mean to say just the African American athlete. I should have said all athletes. It's tough to get into Notre Dame. I don't have to tell that to anybody.
BURKE: The apology comes a day after remarks he made on a radio station in Detroit about winning and standards and race.
HORNUNG: We can't stay as strict as we are as far as the academic structure is concerned, because we got to get the black athlete. We must get the black athlete if we're going to compete. We open up with Michigan State -- I mean Michigan, Michigan St. and Purdue. Those are the first three games, you know, and you can't play a schedule like this unless you have the black athlete today. You just can't do it.
MARQUES BOLDEN, NOTRE DAME SOPHOMORE: It was kind of offensive just basically saying that African American students couldn't get into a school without standards being lowered. It shows that, you know, maybe this feel is probably widespread and it's just not probably him.
BURKE: True or not his alma mater was quick to respond."Paul Hornung in no way speaks for the university and we strongly disagree with the thesis of his remarks. These are generally insensitive and specifically insulting to our past and current African American student athletes."He does, however, join a list of sports notables who have spoken on the subject in haste. Former ESPN analyst Rush Limbaugh on Eagle's quarterback Donovan McNabb.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, FORMER ESPN ANALYST: I think the media has been very desirous... that a black quarterback do well
(UNINTELLIGIBLE)
...black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well I think there is a little hope invested in McNabb.
BURKE: He lost his job. So did Al Campanas and Jimmy the Greek. Like the dome and touchdown Jesus, a tradition, just nothing to brag about.Josie Burke, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Over the years, Robert Lipsyte has written a lot about race and sport. Mr. Lipsyte was a columnist for years at the "New York Times" and still writes for the paper among other chores in life. We're pleased to have him with us tonight. OK, it was a dumb thing to say, yes?
ROBERT LIPSYTE, SPORTS WRITER: Well, I mean Paul Hornung was a great football player, also known as a great wild man and not a heavy thinker and what makes us really uncomfortable is he touched a real sore spot. His apology was right that Notre Dame needs to raise the bar for all athletes but...
BROWN: Or lower the bar as the case may be.
LIPSYTE: Right. But since almost half of all the big ticket college athletes in American are African American there's no way to get race out of the equation.
BROWN: So how ought we look at race in the equation in a way that is not insensitive or offensive or any of that? How do we need to think about this?
LIPSYTE: Well, we have to start with the thought that dumping it on sports or Notre Dame or football is absurd. It's the fact that these kids come from either substandard high schools where they're not getting the education that they need to participate in college or because they're such great athletes that they've been kind of waved through such educational nuances as actually learning how to read.
BROWN: They come into school, I mean the high schools have issues here it seems to me. The colleges have issues too in what they do once they get their hands on the kids.
LIPSYTE: Right and right now we're in what is considered the most exciting sports event of the calendar, the Final Four.
BROWN: Yes.
LIPSYTE: So now and it's the same issue that Hornung was talking about in football. These kids...
BROWN: But why then can a Duke compete year after year in basketball?LIPSYTE: Well, you know, if you and I could go and we could have subpoena powers, I would like to look at Duke. I would like to look at Stanford. I would like to really know what those schools are doing, whether they're all -- those kids are all taking criminal justice and sociology.
BROWN: Right.
LIPSYTE: Just how it works but I also know that when you're say an East Coast school and you have Thursday night games in California and you are not going to two or three days of classes and you've come into college perhaps a little weaker than perhaps you should be in your SAT scores and in your preparation you may never graduate and most of them, of course, don't.
BROWN: Just one difference it seems to me between football and basketball. Basketball you really need to find half a dozen terrific kids or nine terrific kids.
LIPSYTE: Right.
BROWN: Football is much more complicated. The universe of a team is so much larger. Is there -- ought we think about all of this differently? Should we look at college sport, the college sports business and just set all this academic nonsense aside because by and large the universities don't seem to care that much?
LIPSYTE: But they do.
BROWN: Do they?
LIPSYTE: Yes, they do and you talk to college presidents and they really feel that first of all they're stuck because the mortgages on these arenas and the stadiums that they've bought into are enormous.Secondly, the bridge between the university and what they consider the outer constituency, the towns around them, the legislature of the school of the states that they're in really need that kind of communication that sports offers, so sports they feel is important. The problem is that more and more major universities are really football teams that happen to have some classes affiliated.BROWN: It's nice to see you. I hope you'll come back and talk to us about all sorts of things, sports and otherwise.
LIPSYTE: I hope so too.
BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Lipsyte. It's nice to meet you finally. It's been a long time.Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the left strikes back so to speak to conservative domination for years of talk radio. It goes liberal some places, a break first.Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have learned from reading the e-mails and letters over the years that if viewers agree with what you say you are telling it like it is. If they don't agree you're biased, or maybe it's the other way around. We make note of this by way of introducing Air America, the liberal radio network, which made its debut today. Beyond that no comment.Kelly Wallace reports, you decide.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AL FRANKEN, HOST, AIR AMERICA: Broadcasting from an underground bunker 3,500 feet below Dick Cheney's bunker, Air America Radio is on the air.
WALLACE (voice-over): And with that comedian and political satirist Al Franken launched what liberals hope will be the start of a new liberal radio revolution.
FRANKEN: An end to the right wing dominance of talk radio, the beginning of a battle for truth.
WALLACE: But what a battle it will be. Conservatives dominate the radio dial, Rush Limbaugh with his 15 million listeners this week.
SEAN HANNITY, WABC RADIO: And we're going to get your reaction to all these unfolding events.
WALLACE: Sean Hannity right behind. All Hannity would say today he was feeling giddy, why?
HANNITY: Here's a hint. These people are not bright. Here's a hint. They really are dull.
WALLACE: But liberals say look out.
JOY BEHAR, ABC'S "THE VIEW": I don't understand the whole idea that liberals are not funny.
WALLACE: They say they've got humor, star power like radio host actress Janeane Garofalo and listeners who they say despise the Bush administration and are hungry for an alternative.
JANEANE GAROFALO, HOST, AIR AMERICA: An audience that cannot stand the right wing noise coming from radio and from cable news and just the millions of Americans who are upset over the political process.
WALLACE: At a party celebrating the debut of Air America, Al Franken explained why he chose to name his show the "O'Franken Factor."
FRANKEN: There's really one reason and one reason only and that is to annoy and to bait Bill O'Reilly.
WALLACE: O'Reilly, host of "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox, and Franken publicly dueled on a book fair last year.
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS: Hey, shut up. You had your 35 minutes. Shut up.
FRANKEN: This isn't your show, Bill.
O'REILLY: This is what this guy does. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Ouch. But here's the big challenge for Air America. While O'Reilly and Hannity and Limbaugh can be heard on hundreds of stations around the country, Franken and his colleagues, Aaron, can only appear right now on six stations.
BROWN: Well, it's the first day.
WALLACE: It can only go up from here?
BROWN: It's a long way to go. They have a lot of work today. Were they good today?
WALLACE: They can only go up from here.
BROWN: They can only go up from here. That was very diplomatically done. Thank you.
WALLACE: Thank you. BROWN: Thank you, Kelly. On to a few other items making news.Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the "Moneyline Roundup," there she was again, Martha Stewart, the lawyers asking for a retrial on grounds that one of the jurors lied about brushes with the law in order to get on the case. The defense says it would have challenged the juror's inclusion had it known about this, no comment from the U.S. attorney's office. They'll file papers.Donald Trump's accounting firm says a big chunk of Mr. Trump's business may be tapioca. That's a technical term, by the way, we use when we report these financial things. Ernst & Young said that, absent some big changes, Mr. Trump's hotel and casino business may not be able to continue as a going concern. In other words, they would be fired. The markets, meantime, had a sluggish days. Concerns about oil prices, soft employment numbers and so-so many factors all played a part in keeping a lid on the indexes. At the end of the quarter, the Dow industrials and the Nasdaq both down for the first time in a year or more. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, handing over control in Iraq, no one ever thought it would simple. Today proves the point. Where do we go from here.From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: When Benjamin Franklin left the Constitutional Convention have been helped make history, a woman is said to have asked him, "Mr. Franklin, what have you given us?" He replied, "A republic, Madam, if you can keep it."Our guest Noah Feldman recently helped the Iraqis put together the outline of their republic, if they can get there, let alone keep it. The headlines today raise some questions. We want to get his take and that of Ken Pollack as well. Mr. Pollack joins us from Washington. And it is nice to see you both. Noah, let's talk security first, because it is a mess.
NOAH FELDMAN, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: It really is. The truth is that Sunni Arabs, who dominated the state under Saddam, have not accepted the idea of a new Iraq that's democratic where they'll be a minority. And, as a consequence, a lot of them are involved in supporting actively the military insurgency. And those who aren't actively supporting it, a lot of them are sympathetic to it, as we saw today, when one group of people attacked and killed American soldiers and civilians, and then another group of people who were weren't involved in the attack who were sympathetic to its aims stepped in and mutilated the bodies really tragically.
BROWN: Ken, was this a -- is this just a reality and there's nothing we could have done about it as a country, or have mistakes been made going into this that have created the situation? We are 90 days from a handover.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, and there's no question, Aaron, the clocking is ticking and we have got a lot of work to do before we can get to the point where we can safely turn it over. And, of course, the question is, turn it over to whom?I think there's also a big point out there that while it is certainly true that the U.S. cannot protect every single person in Iraq, it's still the case that we could have done a much better job of providing day-to-day security. It's the thing that you hear most from Iraqis. And the poll that was taken by a number of different news services last week showed that once again, an overwhelming majority of Iraqis saying their biggest problem is just day-to-day security, the fact that the U.S. is not trying to keep the streets safe.
BROWN: I want to get past security, but I need to ask one more question here, I think. Noah, let me direct it at you. Is there a way to deal with the political -- with the insurgents not so much on a military level, but to try and deal with them on a political level?
FELDMAN: You need to do both. You need a strong military hand telling people that a military approach is not going to cause us to turn tail and run. And you also, at the same time, need to bring in people politically who can speak for the folks who are sympathetic to the insurgents and tell them, you have a stake in the new Iraq and we're going to give you the following things.It's not a pretty picture, because they're fighting to get those things, but we need to bring them in and offer them some incentive to buy in.
BROWN: These are beyond those Sunnis who already have seats on the Governing Council?
FELDMAN: That's right, because the Sunnis on Governing Council, though they are ethnically and denominationally Sunni Arabs, are not really representative of the ordinary person, certainly not in the Sunni Triangle. They're elites living in and around the big cities. They're sort of like the senior partners in the major law firms more than the ordinary person on the street.
BROWN: Ken, do you agree with that? And, if you do, is that the same as negotiating with terrorists?
POLLACK: Yes, look, I absolutely agree with Noah. I think he's completely right.The only points I would add to what Noah said is that I think that we also need to reach out to the Sunni sheiks. Noah is absolutely right. The problem that we are having are with the tribal Sunnis in the triangle. And the way to reach out to them are through the tribal sheiks. And is this like negotiating with terrorists? Not really. The fact of the matter is, in the Middle East and particularly in Iraq, there is a long tradition of this. You go to the sheiks, you provide them with resources, and in return they provide security in their part of the country. Every ruler of Iraq has done it or they have faced problems with it. This should not be that difficult a problem if we're willing to go in there and sit down with the tribal sheiks.
BROWN: To both of you, but Ken first, what are the consequences there and here if the 90-day deadline isn't met?
POLLACK: Well, I think it will be met, because I think the administration is going to come up with something. My concern is that what they're going to do -- and I think Noah is alluding to this already -- is, they're basically just going to extend the life of the current Governing Council. And the current Governing Council is not considered legitimate. The Iraqis don't like it. They see it as appointed, unrepresentative of them. In fact, the problems with the Governing Council are what got us to the point to begin with, because it's the problems with the Governing Council that caused Paul Bremer to create this November 15 process that was supposed to replace them.
BROWN: Are you as convinced that the 90-day deadline is in stone here?
FELDMAN: I would say that it's not exactly in sand, but it's not in stone either. I would say it's on paper.And although I entirely agree with Ken that people are very committed to it's happening, if they believe in Washington that transferring sovereignty to the Iraqis on June 30 will lead to the collapse of the country between then and November, we're not going to transfer sovereignty. And we're getting closer to that possibility.
BROWN: But what really happens, since the security of the country remains in the hands -- or at least under the command and largely in the hands of the Americans, what would happen on June 30 that would cause the collapse of the country that didn't happen on March the 31st?
FELDMAN: Well, it's a catch-22, because if nothing happens, except for Ambassador Bremer coming home, then the Iraqis will say, well, where's our sovereignty? Nothing has changed. If, on the other hand, we give some governing authority to some expanded version of the Governing Council, as Ken was suggesting, which I think is absolutely the most likely outcome, some Iraqis may say, these guys are legitimate. And especially if Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the senior Shia cleric in the country, says, this is not going to fly, this is not good enough, then the new government will not have legitimacy. And that really could lead to greater security problems.
BROWN: It's good to see you, Ken. It's always good to have you with us. Thank you both for joining us very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Hopefully, there will be better days ahead there. A few quick items before we head to break.Senator Kerry resting tonight after surgery to repair his right shoulder. The operation in Boston took about 45 minutes, no complications, according to doctors. When it's that short, is there a co-pay? Mr. Kerry, they say, should be back shaking hands pretty soon. In Wisconsin -- this is a remarkable story -- a missing college student is safe tonight, the search now for a possible abductor. Audrey Seiler vanished on Saturday. She turned up in a marshy area of Madison, Wisconsin, today, the capital. Authorities won't say much, but doctors tell us she had been confined for a period of time and lucky apparently to get away. In New Jersey, the defense rested today in the manslaughter trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams. Despite promising jurors they would hear his own account of the shooting that killed his limo driver, Mr. Williams never took the witness stand. Closing arguments there scheduled for next week. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the L.A. River, to many, an eyesore, to some, a source of life. But to NEWSNIGHT and one photographer, it is a work of art. A break first. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ansel Adams, who made a name for himself photographing scenes in nature, put it well. "Almost anything manmade," he wrote, "that endures in time acquires some qualities of the natural. Bleak shapes grow into a kind of magic that, once seen, cannot easily be ignored" -- which brings us to the Los Angeles River, which, if we were being honest, is a drainage ditch, but which, through the eyes of photographer John Humble, cannot be ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN HUMBLE, PHOTOGRAPHER: I began photographing the river because I had been photographing L.A. for a long time, and I kind of ignored the river, like everybody else. It's not really a river anymore. As you can see, it's a big concrete ditch now. I just decided to do it in almost a pictorial way, to take something as ugly as this and really create beautiful photographs from it.So a lot had to do with lighting and it had to with my selection of the time, the angle, all that sort of thing. Up through the Glendale Narrows, they could not put concrete on the bottom, because the water level is too close to the surface. And so there are areas through there where there's a lot of vegetation that grows along the river, so it looks more like a real river, because it looks like fall in Vermont. I created that much through lighting, because the fact is that the sun is going down and it creates all of those reds and oranges and yellows across the foliage, so that it looks like fall, and, in fact, it's all green because there's a lot on it. And then I shot under the bridge and the river is traveling under the bridge. And you see all the pillars there. And, again, that's only a photograph because of the lighting, because of the fact that it was very late afternoon, and the light, kind of golden light, was coming under it, illuminating that area under the bridge. I think a lot of the people look at the power wires in Los Angeles and think they're relatively ugly. And, in a way, I guess they are, although, of course, they remind me of Paris and the Eiffel Tower. But they also are a stark reminder of how we live in Southern California, that everything is visible. And they help me in a way compositionally when I'm making photographs, because I can use them to slice up areas that would normally not have anything happening in them. That's the headwaters of the Los Angeles River. And right there, what you say is, you see Arroyo, Calabasas, and Bell Creek. And when they come together, right behind Canoga Park High School, that's the beginning of the Los Angeles River.All of the water from all around here, from the mountains, from the streets, everywhere, flows into this river. And 51 miles of concrete later, it gets taken out to that he ocean and Long Beach. I think that it's too bad more people in Los Angeles aren't aware of really the rich history that this river has. The reason that Los Angeles is here today as a city is because of this river. And by the time I finished photographing the river, I actually felt some affection for this river.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That was a spectacular piece. That was great. Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, reality TV comes to the Middle East, but why it won't stay. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We began the night with the horrific images of the attack on the American contract workers in Fallujah today. In this segment, we're back there as well with outrage over images of another sort. Perhaps it was inevitable. Western-style reality television has found its way on to Arab TV. The reaction says a lot about the challenges in the region, including Iraq. Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are a huge commercial success, Western-style reality TV shows captivating audiences in the Middle East, daring brands of entertainment here featuring young men and women under one roof for all to see. "Big Brother" clashed head-on with conservative Islam.
REINA SARKIS, PSYCHOLOGIST: It's as if that show sort of lifted the veil, not from women's faces, but from the society's face.
SADLER: Seen in some form, say the Dutch creators, by as many as two billion viewers in 25 countries, including the United States. (on camera): But not in the Middle East until producers thought they had worked out a new format that would not cross this region's strict religious and social boundaries. (voice-over): Wrong. MBC, a Saudi Arabian-owned company, pulled the plug on the reported $10 million program after just 10 days on air to silence a religious outcry in the kingdom of Bahrain, where the show was transmitted from. Howls of protest followed this scene of a Saudi man with a Saudi flag kissing a Tunisian housemate, sparking fierce debate that reached Parliament. "There are many other scenes that were sickening," says this Islamic M.P., "so we took action" to shut down this purpose-built studio with separate sleeping quarters for men and women and prayer rooms for both. Zain al-Thawadi is a Bahraini who worked on the show from day one, returning home after years of study in the United States to help produce what they thought was a pioneering adventure, only to feel crushed and let down.
ZAIN AL-THAWADI, ASST. PRODUCER, "BIG BROTHER": No matter how much you try to change it, nothing is going to change here, you know? I really feel -- I envy people who can just pick up their bags and leave. I really do.
SADLER: Viewers never saw these pictures of the 12 housemates doing just that, ending a regional show the creators promised to revamp and relocate to reach a part of the world where reality TV is far stranger than fiction. Brent Sadler, CNN, Bahrain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we got a ton of good ones today, not quite enough time to do them all well, but we'll do as many as we can."San Antonio Express-News." Everybody leading with Iraq today. "Americans Mutilated, Iraqi Mob Hangs Charred Bodies From a Bridge." That's the lead. They're also running a series on the final four. "Hooping It Up. You'll Pay to Stay in S.A." Get it? That's where the final four is this year."
"The Dallas Morning News." "Cheering For Death" is the headline. "Four U.S. Civilians Killed, Defiled in Iraqi Ambush." Down over in the corner, I like this story. "Pharmacy Refusals Assailed. Druggists Defend the Right to Deny Contraceptives on Moral Grounds." I need to think about that. "South Bend Tribune," South Bend, Indiana." "Hornung Backtracks, Denies Notre Dame Remark Was Racist." But he apologized anything, so what's that all about?
Now, what's interesting to me about that is "The Detroit News." The original comment was made on a Detroit radio station. "Notre Dame Legend Stands By His Remarks." So which is it? Did he backtrack or is he standing by his remarks? It's very confusing. This did not change. "Bloodshed in Iraq Rocks the United States."
"The Philadelphia Inquirer" leads the same. I think it's an horrific day, a horrific day? Well, it's one of the grammar things that confuses me. "A Horrific Day in Iraq. In Fallujah, Known for Resisting the U.S., Residents Set Upon the Dead in a Gruesome Display." It certainly was that. "Hate For U.S. Burns in Fallujah."How are we doing on time? Thirty seconds. OK. One more of these, "The Times Herald Record."
This is the actual "Times Herald Record" of Upstate New York. "Savage Attack" is their headline. And then they did a very funny thing, OK? They thought we wouldn't catch this. They thought we were silly or stupid, so they sent this one down. "The Times Herald" for April 1. "NEWSNIGHT Shocker: Aaron Can't Read. After Years of Blaming His Glasses, CNN Anchor Admits, 'I Never Had No Book Learnin'. Why do you think I do TV?'" Yes. Weather in Chicago, "foolish." No, the weather in Chicago tomorrow is "no joke." That's what it is. No joke here either. Bill Hemmer with a look at tomorrow's ""AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thank you.Tomorrow morning here on "AMERICAN MORNING," how was your dinner tonight? Was it interesting? Probably not as interesting as our friend Donna Brazile. She's dining with Michael Jackson tonight. And tomorrow, she'll dish up the story with us. How is the king of pop holding up, with all these legal problems and also his visit to D.C. this week? We will find out that from Ms. Brazile tomorrow morning, 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on "AMERICAN MORNING." Hope to see you then -- Aaron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. The's one of those we missed, Michael Jackson in Washington. We'll have to get to that tomorrow.Good to have you with us tonight."LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you coming up next. We'll see you tomorrow, on the actual April Fool's Day. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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